Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

[Bible Highlighter]

Correct. But the point is are they ever understood naturally? No. "for no man understands them." They could also be the tongues of angels. The are all created by God.

Tongues of angels in 1 Corinthians 13:1 is not a literal statement, but a metaphorical or parabolic statement. For clearly no man can understand ALL mysteries as verse 2 says (1 Corinthians 13:2). Only God can know all mysteries. So Paul is speaking parabolically or metaphorically.

But, there are two types of tongues. The difference is in the direction. TO God, or FROM God. I'm not holding you to knowing this, as many Pentecostals don't even know this. LOL

Prayer and praise is TO God. That is the sign. This is the one not to be spoken loudly in church unless as a choir.

Messages FROM God, MUST have interpretation.

There is no clear biblical basis for this. It's an extra biblical revelation (Which is not Scriptural).

 

[Albion]

It is never pointless to argue or correct according to Scripture. .

I never said that it is, Jason.

 

[1stcenturylady]

They understood each other supernaturally by the Spirit but they were speaking in real foreign languages to each other. This again does not prove that the "no man understands him" is in view of all people on the planet. Acts 2 is in reference to speaking and understanding real foreign languages by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit. This sets the stage for our understanding on tongues from this point.

LOL Of course, when they were discussing what in the world is happening, they were discussing this in their own common language, not in tongues.

And you are correct. They understood the tongues supernaturally, because "no man understands tongues." It would be like three of the 120 were speaking in tongues, and one was speaking German, the second was speaking in the tongue of an angel, and the last was speaking Japanese. But the Englishman hearing it, HEARD English, the Frenchman HEARD French, and the Spaniard HEARD Spanish.

No one is disputing that tongues are actual languages as all language is created by God. I doubt God could even understand "gibberish" as many Cessationists scoff and mock - Psalms 1.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You were there?

I have seen some videos on it. There was one where a woman teacher was chanting like in the occult. She did not seem to think this person was possessed. This one guy was normal before, and then she laid hands on him and he started to scream.

I post this verse as a hint scoffing is not pleasing to God.

It's a common term used in these kinds of discussions and debates on this topic. It is not meant as an insult, but it is meant to say what they are. These kinds of tongues have not been proven scientifically (by linguists) that they are real languages but merely repeated phrases jumbled together with no real rhyme thought or reason (i.e. ecstatic utterances). I am not talking about the actual tongues mentioned in Scripture. I am talking about the extra biblical practices that is not mentioned in the Bible. You need to prove your case for the kind of tongues speaking that you are partaking in. There is none.

Incorrect. Praise is what 120 were proclaiming altogether in tongues on the Day of Pentecost. "the wonderful works of God.”

What verse says that?

Answer: None.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never said that it is, Jason.

You said that this topic is pointless. I have shown otherwise with Scripture.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Tongues of angels in 1 Corinthians 13:1 is not a literal statement, but a metaphorical or parabolic statement.

Do you think angels are mute? They speak to each other, and God created their language. Paul was not speaking methaphorically, like Clemet.

What verse says that? None.

Oh my!

Acts 2:11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

 

[1stcenturylady]

Bye for now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I gotta run.
Maybe be back later.

 

[Albion]

It is never pointless to argue or correct according to Scripture.

You said that this topic is pointless.

No, I said that claiming tongues/the gifts have not ceased if it is evident that they did...is pointless. I not say that arguing according to Scripture is.

It is
pointless to look at the record and then stamp ones feet because you think it should have worked out differently.

 

[JAL]

Nowhere is it impossible for God to operate by gifts if He wanted to today. But God has revealed to us in His Word and He revealed to us with life experience that this simply does not happen today (according to His Word). It was logical to assume that man could fly if he seen the birds fly. He could create something like that of a bird. But with Cessationism, it is about God allowing something and it has nothing to do with His capacity or power to be able to do so. So one argument is in reference to if such a thing is possible, and the other is in reference to what is allowed or permitted.

For let me ask you: If the miraculous gifts (not all gifts) have not ceased, then where are they? Is not the very nature of our observance that we do not see miracles today like we read about in the early church proof of Cessationism? For do you still see these things continuing (i.e. Continuationism)? I sure don't. Nobody is being healed by a believer's shadow. Nobody is being healed by their handing out their clothes to others. Nobody is raising the dead.

You make a rather sanctimonious show of being a "defender of God's Word". What a soldier you are!

So you've defended His written Word. Nice. Now, how about defending HIM for a change? You just insinuated that God is the sort of the jerk who is no longer COMMITTED to healing the sick. Jesus healed the sick out of compassion. Has he changed? He's now cold-hearted? I see only two choices here, regarding today's lack of miracles.
(A) It's God's fault. He's a jerk.
(B) It's man's fault. The church is off-track.

Now I ask you, being a 'defender of the Word', which choice matches the Word better?

There are several verses in the NT suggesting that:
(1) All things are possible for those who have enough faith/certainty (presumably this means 100% certainty).
(2) Jesus was WILLING to do miracles but was impeded by the lack of faith.

Rather than accepting personal responsibility and blame for the lack of gifts, it's much easier to make God the culprit in all this. How convenient. Lovely.

 

[1stcenturylady]

This is not in the Bible.

It is using this perfect prayer language in a proper way that is not against scripture. They are praying to God in a way that does not distract, which is the spirit of the rule.

I'm curious if you can accept that? Your answer to that question will speak volumes to whether you are ready to seriously and honestly study continuationism, because your mind will have to be completely open to the Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I said that claiming tongues/the gifts have not ceased if it is evident that they did...is pointless. I not say that arguing according to Scripture is.

If miraculous gifts given to certain believers have ceased (according to Scripture and what we see in real life). then it is not pointless to argue for that truth.

 

[NBB]

If miraculous gifts given to certain believers have ceased (according to Scripture and what we see in real life). then it is not pointless to argue for that truth.

Except if you are convinced that is the truth when reality other people are telling you they have experienced this things.

Also i don't understand why if someone shows something miraculous then it must be of the devil , or a physic, God can't do things like that too? and when they are preaching about Jesus too, and maybe with it can be some slight apparent errors only.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No. There is only one kind of tongue spoken about in 1 Corinthians 14.

Again you are wrong. Both types of tongues are spoken about, because the Corinthians were using the sign of tongues in error and causing confusion. They had to learn that just because you have an ability from the Spirit doesn't mean you should all speak your gift altogether all the time. And some abilities are not for the purpose of edifying the whole congregation, but are for the individual.

The difference is praying TO God, and receiving messages FROM God. The first is for the individual and given to all who believe - that is every true Spirit-filled Christian. That is in Mark 16:16-18. The other is NOT given to all who believe, but is more like an office in the church, just as is an apostle, prophet, pastor, or teacher. This is from an additional release of the Spirit for boldness in particular individuals in the congregation. The partnering office is the interpreter. 1 Corinthians 12:30. Many uninformed teachers try to use this verse to say that not every believer receives the ability to pray in tongues. Just as every believer receives the whole armor of God, praying in the Spirit is just part of that armor.

 

[1stcenturylady]

If miraculous gifts given to certain believers have ceased (according to Scripture and what we see in real life). then it is not pointless to argue for that truth.

That is according to the interpretation of 'Jason' and not the Author. As far as "real life" not everyone is a born again, Spirit-filled Christian. But those who are, can.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is using this perfect prayer language in a proper way that is not against scripture. They are praying to God in a way that does not distract, which is the spirit of the rule.

I'm curious if you can accept that? Your answer to that question will speak volumes to whether you are ready to seriously and honestly study continuationism, because your mind will have to be completely open to the Spirit.

Show me the Scripture for a private prayer language in an unknown tongue. I say it doesn’t exist clearly in Scripture. Inferences are made on select verses when it could also be read from the perspective of real foreign languages. In fact, this would be the preferred interpretation seeing that a private prayer language is not described clearly in God’s Word. Thus, a private prayer language becomes something extra biblical.

1 Corinthians 14:2 says that tongues is this:

“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2).

Yes, there was also an answer from God in tongues.

“In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:21).

But it was interpreted; Otherwise they were to keep silent (1 Corinthians 14:28).

 

[NBB]

Show me the Scripture for a private prayer language in an unknown tongue. I say it doesn’t exist clearly in Scripture. Inferences are made on select verses when it could also be read from the perspective of real foreign languages. In fact, this would be the preferred interpretation seeing that a private prayer language is not described clearly in God’s Word. Thus, a private prayer language becomes something extra biblical.

1 Corinthians 14:2 says that tongues is this:

“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2).

If he is speaking to God and not men, why men needs to understand it? is speaking to God, not to men.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The key to understanding the beginning of 1 Corinthians 14 (in that it is not talking about a private prayer language) is verse 5.

“I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:5).

 

[NBB]

The key to understanding the beginning of 1 Corinthians 14 (in that it is not talking about a private prayer language) is verse 5.

“I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:5).

Another problem with cessationism is that lot of the bible gets obsolete, here he says: i wish all of you spoke in tongues. Other people just think the church of the first century have the same rules as today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If he is speaking to God and not men, why men needs to understand it? is speaking to God, not to men.

First part: 1 Corinthians 14:2 says that tongues is a prayer to God.

“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2).

Second part: Tongues was also an answer from God in a foreign language. The person would speak also words from the Lord in a unknown tongue.

“In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:21).

But it was interpreted; Otherwise they were to keep silent (1 Corinthians 14:28).