Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

[Bible Highlighter]

There is nothing wrong to seek the power and direction of God for the gospel, and charismatics do that better. Even if there are weird things going on, one must separate the good from the bad.

But are we supposed to seek power as believers in this day and age today? Are we not servants? Do we not walk by faith? Also, most Charismatic churches that I have heard about do not obey 1 Corinthians 14 correctly. So this means they are not acting in accordance to God's will if they are in rebellion to the rules on tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. Charismatics also make up 500 million Christians of our day. Did not Jesus say, "narrow is the way"?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So the Spirit is at work in you while you deny his giftings.

I strongly lean that the miraculous gifts (and not all gifts, and not miracles in general) have ceased based upon many verses in Scripture. But I do leave about 5% or 10% of a chance that I could be wrong (So as not to speak against any real genuine real workings of God today).

May God bless you.

 

[Saint Steven]

God can preserve His Word in a language that can speak prophetically of how things are today.

But we he do that just to make you doctrinally happy? (with no other concerns)

 

[Saint Steven]

Also, are you saying that the curses of where men lost their voice for adding to God's Word is just all a sham throughout history?

The curses in "this scroll". (more proof)

 

[JLB777]

Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not claiming that all brothers and sisters are automatically liars if they believe they have done genuine miracles or they have seen what they believe to be genuine miracles. I am always open to the possibility that God may operate miraculously today on rare occasions. I am also aware that I am human and fallible and I would not want to speak against the true working of the power of God today. So unless I see or witness a group's miracles and beliefs, I am not claiming all who claim to be working by God's power today are not genuine. In fact, there is a brother I feel close with who believes that he operates by God's power and miracles. I cannot honestly say how God is operating in His life. But yet I know the Bible tells me that miraculous gifts have ceased, though. Perhaps for us, it is a matter of perspective. In either case, here is my Biblical case for Cessationism (The ceasing of miraculous gifts given to the apostles).​

1. Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
   
   
2. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
   
   
3. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
   
   
4. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
   
   
5. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).
   
   
6. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).
   
   
7. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).
   
   
8. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
   
   
9. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:​

(a) They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
(b) " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
(c) " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
(d) " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
(e) " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
(f) " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
(g) " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
(h) " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
(i) " " confused about liberty thinking it meant licence to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8 ,9 ,10.
(j) " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
(k). " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
(l) " " confused about the resurrection. 15
(m) " " confused about the collection. 16
​

As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e. tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.​

Not one single scripture in the Bible says tongues has ceased.



Evidence of Speaking in Tongues in the Early Church

Historical evidence of speaking in tongues in the early church from the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, Chrysostom of Constantinople, and Augustine of Hippo…

A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4

A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46

A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6

A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all."1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

"THIS IS THAT..."

"But Peter... lifted up his voice and said: This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."ACTS 2:16-17

What is "this"? This is what happened in the upper room on that first Pentecostal Sunday:

1. The fire of God appeared.
2. The sound of God's Spirit was heard.
3. They were all filled.
4. They all spoke in tongues.

What is "that"? That, said Peter, is what has caused this - namely, the Spirit of God poured out as promised.

Not a word from the Old or New Testaments suggests that this outpouring would be limited to one day. Bible teaching is to the contrary:

1. The experience was for all (JOEL 2:28).
2. Tongues was to be the sign (See MARK 16:17; ISAIAH 28:11-12; 1 CORINTHIANS 14:21).
3. The experience was seen and heard (ACTS 2:33).
4. It was continued throughout all generations (ACTS 2:39).

Why "this" is "that"? This is that simply because the Holy Spirit was identified with the experience of tongues. Take this scriptural confirmation away and we indulge in guesswork of the most dangerous nature. Whether in the house of Cornelius (ACTS 10:44), or at Ephesus (ACTS 19), the lack of THIS would have frustrated the receiving of THAT - namely the wonderful and satisfying gift of the Holy Spirit, with tongues.



JLB

 

[Saint Steven]

many verses in Scripture

So, anything more than two counts as many?

 

[NBB]

But are we supposed to seek power as believers in this day and age today? Are we not servants? Do we not walk by faith? Also, most Charismatic churches that I have heard about do not obey 1 Corinthians 14 correctly. So this means they are not acting in accordance to God's will if they are in rebellion to the rules on tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. Charismatics also make up 500 million Christians of our day. Did not Jesus say, "narrow is the way"?

That scripture speaks against you, you maybe quoteing it wrong. at least what appears when hovering over it.
Yes we need the power of the Holy spirit to preach effectively and live better the christian life. Not that i'm an superb example of that, but i'm trying to get help from God to be better.
Yes we are servants.
Walking by faith is not equal to avoid having things. Faith is going to be needed always in this life anyway.
That is a horrible argument, saying that because there are a number of pentecostal, they are all deceived becasue narrow is the way, what?

 

[Saint Steven]

Charismatics also make up 500 million Christians of our day. Did not Jesus say, "narrow is the way"?

Seriously?
Interesting that you would apply that to protestant denominations to make your claim. Is that what Jesus meant? Aren't there more Catholics than Protestants? Why don't you pick on them? Or focus on the whole world population? You would literally say anything to put Pentecostals and Charismatics down. And then have the audacity to sign off with: "May God bless you." (while you burn)

 

[NBB]

I strongly lean that the miraculous gifts (and not all gifts, and not miracles in general) have ceased based upon many verses in Scripture. But I do leave about 5% or 10% of a chance that I could be wrong (So as not to speak against any real genuine real workings of God today).

May God bless you.

When Jesus had to deal with the disciples, he said to them a lot of times: believe more. or have faith, i think you need to have more faith in Jesus that he can do a lot more, and leave the door open to anything, within reason... but especially the things mentioned in the bible. Things that nobody saw, or even thought in the hearts of men are prepared to those who love him.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It was not a sign to the Gentile unbeliever. But an unbelieving Gentile could come to Christ by the miracle of a foreign language being spoken along with an interpreter. They could recognize that this person was speaking a real language that they heard before (perhaps someone close to them), and the message could relate to their own personal situation in their own life that they needed to hear so as to accept the Lord. This can only be via the interpreter. For if they just heard tongues speaking only, they would think that they were mad (Just as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14).

It is written to the Corinthians. The verse says nothing about interpretation. You are being unscriptural again. Try again.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I believe that there is a fullness type filling, but there is no refillings. Believers do not lose the Spirit of God, and then regain the Spirit of God unless they sin and confess of that sin.

When someone is first filled with the Spirit, they do not receive all of His power. The two fillings of Acts 2 and Acts 4 are the same people. So again you are not understanding scripture and making things up. I'm willing to teach you, but you must throw away all your myths.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So the Spirit is at work in you while you deny his giftings.

Not at all. I believe there are still gifts of the Spirit, but they are not the miraculous gifts. Well, at least I lean 90% in that direction. You can criticize me all you like, but I would rather play it safe than be wrong with God. Gifts are not a required part of one's salvation.

 

[Jair Crawford]

Please forgive me in advance for my poor formatting. I’m using my phone and haven’t figured out an easy way to organize quotes in a post. I’m going to try to respond as best I can to each of your points. I will try not to be too overzealous as I am a pretty hard core continualist who believes in the five fold ministry.

1. Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
   
   
2. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
   
   
3. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
   
   
4. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
   
   
5. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).
   
   
6. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).
   
   
7. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).
   
   
8. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
   
   
9. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:​

1. It seems as though Paul IS saying just that. He says that we only see in part right now, like babes, but, when that which is perfect comes, in verse 12 he describes this as “face to face”, we will have knowledge in full and likens this to wisdom of a grown man. What makes this stand out to me is the use of the words “face to face”. This has very strong connotations of seeing Jesus in His fullness, IE the 2nd Coming and in Heaven.

2. This is purely speculation and taking verses out of context. Perfect may be neuter, but that does not prove that it refers to the Bible. It just as easily could be referring to the afterlife. In fact I find this far more likely. The imagery of glass and mirrors ties strongly into his use of the phrase “face to face”, which, again, has strong connotations of when we see Jesus face to face in the afterlife.

3. Tongues are not only for a sign. You cite scriptures that state that they are for a sign but there are far more purposes listed in scripture, such as edification, and also the Holy Spirit interceding for us when we know not what to pray for.

4. That is an interpretation. This is not proof. You make an interesting point bringing up Jesus and a period of silence in miracles. I will bring this back up in a later point.
And to state that the need for tongues and miracles has ceased today is a massive assertion to make.

5. The argument from silence is flawed in and of itself, and this is a rather weak argument of silence here. Just because Paul doesn’t mention the gifts in these later letters does not mean they stopped. If anything he just no longer needed to address issues with them after his initial writings on how to use them correctly.

6. But we will not attain fullness of knowledge until we reach the ‘end’ of eternity. For that is how long it will take for us to fully comprehend an infinite being, in our case, God.

7. According to what verse? This “it would happen 100% of the time” argument comes up a lot but I have yet to come across any verses that truly back it up. In fact in Marks gospel there is an instance where it clearly states that Jesus was unable to perform any miracles in a town because of the people’s unbelief.

8. That verse in Revelation refers to the written scroll, and has absolutely nothing to do with prophesy. This verse is taken out of context all the time for so many reasons. May I be so bold to say that it isn’t even talking about the Bible in its entirety, but the book of Revelation itself. Some scholars believe that Revelation pre-dates Jude. If that’s the case, then Jude would be in trouble!

9. Except the scripture explicitly includes apostles and prophets along with pastors, teachers, and evangelists in the five fold ministry of the church. Again you are nitpicking verses and taking them out of context to fit your pre-determined view that apostles and prophets are no more. The requirement for being a part of the 12 disciples/apostles of Christ was to see Him resurrected. This does not refute apostolic succession. Technically Paul didn’t witness the physical risen Christ. He had a post-ascension encounter on the Damascus road, akin to a vision. There is no verse that says something similar can’t happen today. And if Paul equates this to seeing the risen Christ, then this can easily become an argument FOR the apostolic, rather than against it.

10. But the Word says we are not to forbid the speaking of tongues. Moreover, the Bible says we are to “earnestly seek the gift of prophecy”. And it never said ‘until it stops then don’t do it anymore’.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is written to the Corinthians. The verse says nothing about interpretation. You are being unscriptural again. Try again.

I know who it was written to. But that does not mean Paul cannot address others sometimes in various portions of his letters to the Gentile churches. For example: The book of Romans was written to the Roman church, but chapter 9-11 is largely addressing Israel and not the Gentile church.

Anyways, lets read 1 Corinthians 14, to see what Paul is talking about here:

21 "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
(1 Corinthians 14:21-22).​

1 Corinthians 14:21 says for that all that (other tongues) they will not hear me, saith the Lord. Who will not hear the Lord? The Jews.

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." (Romans 11:11).

43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them." (Matthew 21:43-45).​

1 Corinthians 14:22 says that tongues are for a sign.

1 Corinthians 1:22 says,
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"​

The Pharisees and Scribes (Jews) desired a sign from Jesus. But Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign.

38 "Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;" (Matthew 12:38-39).​

I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from.

May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When someone is first filled with the Spirit, they do not receive all of His power.

Nowhere did I say that such a thing happened.

The two fillings of Acts 2 and Acts 4 are the same people. So again you are not understanding scripture and making things up. I'm willing to teach you, but you must throw away all your myths.

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When Jesus had to deal with the disciples, he said to them a lot of times: believe more. or have faith, i think you need to have more faith in Jesus that he can do a lot more, and leave the door open to anything, within reason... but especially the things mentioned in the bible. Things that nobody saw, or even thought in the hearts of men are prepared to those who love him.

This is not about faith. Actually I see the Charismatic position as more of a lack of faith because Jesus said that blessed are those who do not see and yet believe. Miracles are all about what you see. Yes, the early church operated by the power of the Spirit, but it was to authenticate the message of God's Word.

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." (Mark 16:20).

The miracles were a way to authenticate the messenger or messengers.

3 "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Hebrews 2:3-4).

This is actually about being cautious with my own soul. If a Charismatic church is not obeying God's Word when it comes to the gifts, then they are not operating by the power of God; Especially if they have been in operating by incorrect means for so long of a time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Seriously?
Interesting that you would apply that to protestant denominations to make your claim. Is that what Jesus meant? Aren't there more Catholics than Protestants? Why don't you pick on them? Or focus on the whole world population? You would literally say anything to put Pentecostals and Charismatics down. And then have the audacity to sign off with: "May God bless you." (while you burn)

It's not about picking on a people, but it is about discussing what I believe to be the truth. For truth is important. So the Word of God will help us to find the truth on this matter.

I also did not say "May God bless you (while you burn)."
Those are your words, and not mine.

Please be kind.
For I did not attack you personally.
I am only against the belief or the position held.

 

[JAL]

Nowhere did I say that such a thing happened.

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

Charismatic/prophetic anointings typically last for the hour of need, to be repeated as necessary. For example:
(1) The Spirit fell upon Samson every time that he needed supernatural strength.
(2) The divine Word came to the prophets again and again (especially documented in Jeremiah).
Luke-Acts is written in that OT tradition, except Luke casts it as being 'filled with the Holy Spirit'. Examples of inspired speech (prophecy).

"His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied" (Lk 1:67).
"Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit, and said to them..." (Acts 4)
"They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke in other languages" (Acts 2).

Nothing has changed from the OT. As I already argued at post 379, the Abrahamic covenant was inviolable and is still in effect.

WHY do charismatic anointings repeat? Simple. Efficacious grace. Yahweh isn't a sit-around-do-nothing God. He sends His Word to perform the miracle, efficaciously, then it returns immediately to Him (Isa 55:11). It doesn't sit-around-and-do-nothing, waiting for the next miracle.

Whereas, by contrast, sanctifying anointings are longlasting because holiness is ongoing. To summarize: The term 'filled with the Spirit' can refer either to:
(A) Longlasting sanctifying anointings
(B) Transitory charismatic anointings.
You see both in Luke-Acts but Luke is mostly focused on type-B (inspired speech for witnessing).

 

[JAL]

Nowhere did I say that such a thing happened.

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

And yet the disciples were already saved, long before the Spirit of Prophecy fell upon them. Of course you dismiss these facts as 'exceptions' (special pleading).

A theology with exceptions is inherently inferior from a hermeneutical standpoint. Why so? Here again, it calls into question God's competence as an instructor. Even if exceptions were possible, why document them? Just to confuse us? The existence of exceptions makes truth impossible to determine because it leaves us torn between two choices:
(A)Those incidents were the exceptions, the others are the rule.
(B)Those incidents are the rule, the others are the exceptions.

 

[JAL]

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

Your instinct here is understandable given 2,000 years of brainwashing in Platonic philosophy. That's why in post 507 I exposed biblical metaphysics to be volumetric rather than Platonic. To be filled with the Spirit literally refers to increases in volume.

Volumetric dynamics include outpourings of Light-quanta (viz the Transfiguration) radiating from God's face. Moses put a physical veil over his own face to restrain the Light to brilliant for Israel's eyes. This proves the Light to be physical, because a physical veil would have failed to restrain immaterial light. That same Light physically seared Paul's eyes on the road to Damascus, culminating in hardened scales falling off his eyes at the time of healing. And Stephen's face - just like Moses - was radiant like that of an angel.

Forget about all that Platonic nonsense. There's no truth in it.