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Featured Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jan 3, 2019.

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  1. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    It's a good thing Paul and Peter didn't make the same mistake.

    In a vision on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), Paul heard a voice contradicting EVERYTHING he had concluded from exegesis. A Jewish carpenter was God? Huh? He was the Messiah even though He died on a cross? What? Wasn't the Messiah supposed to be a world-conqueror? Thank God that Paul trusted the vision more than his exegesis.

    Similarly Peter saw a vision urging him to preach to the Gentiles (Acts 10). Huh? Mingle with the unclean? In contradiction to EVERYTHING he had learned from exegesis? It's a good thing Peter trusted the vision over exegesis.

    How did Paul and Peter decide rightly? How did they know to trust the visions above exegesis in such instances? Simple. Conscience. Feelings of certainty. If the level of certainty is high enough (in this case it was likely 100%), there's no way to dismiss the obligation in good faith.

    Here again,conscience - vis a vis direct revelation - is God's most powerful tool for saving His people,governing them, encouraging them, and fellowshiping with them.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Right, I said prophetically that this is what God would mean with the word. Words can change in meaning with the passage of time. Do you deny that the word "book" can mean the way we understand it today? Is not the Bible a book? Yes? Do you think God would be unaware of the book known as the Bible during the time He had John write Revelation? Do you think some Jews were aware of the Messiah via the Holy Scriptures? Do you not think they spoke ahead of it's time and had a double meaning?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  3. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    And if you had God's Word, you might have a case. But all you REALLY have is a fallible translation of, and fallible exegesis of, God's Word. Direct revelation brings clarification and correction.

    Paul - back when he was still called Saul - knew the written Word a lot better than you will EVER know it. But you know what? It wasn't enough. He needed revelation. Therefore I must disagree with your conclusion:
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am not saying that the Jews naturally understood foreign tongues. I am saying that they believed that it was a sign of judgment. If the Jews rejected Christ, there would be judgment. Along with the offer of salvation is also the warning of judgment in not accepting Him. When the Jews were thrown into the Babylonian exile, they were held captive by foreigners. They spoke foreign tongues. The tower of Babel was a time when God confused the language as a part of man's sin. It was judgment. Tongues are for unbelievers. They are a sign to the Jews. For the Jews sought after a sign. That is why they were temporary.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    @1stcenturylady

    GENESIS:
    God has a message for the people (Genesis 9:1, Genesis 9:7).
    The people refuse to listen to God (Genesis 11:4).
    God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Genesis 11:7).
    Dispersion follows (Genesis 11:8).

    DEUTERONOMY:
    God has a message for His people (Deuteronomy 28:1).
    The people refuse to listen to God (Deuteronomy 28:15).
    God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Deuteronomy 28:49).
    Dispersion follows (Deuteronomy 28:64-65).

    JEREMIAH:
    God has a message for His people (Jeremiah 4:1).
    The people refuse to listen to God (Jeremiah 5:3).
    God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Jeremiah 5:15).
    Dispersion follows (Jeremiah 5:19).

    ISAIAH:
    God has a message for His people (Isaiah 28:12).
    The people refuse to listen to God (Isaiah 28:12).
    God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Isaiah 28:11).
    Dispersion follows (Isaiah 28:13).

    THE PATTERN REPEATED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT:

    God has a message for the people (Matthew 11:28; compare Jeremiah 4:1; Isaiah 28:12).
    The people refuse to listen to God (Matthew 23:37).
    God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Acts of the Apostles 2, Acts of the Apostles 10, Acts of the Apostles 19, etc.).
    Dispersion follows (Matthew 23:38; Matthew 24:2).

    Source used:
    http://jbeard.users.rapidnet.com/bdm/Psychology/char/35.htm#anchor1179438
    (Note: I do not agree with all things said by this author even within the article; But I do agree with their quote here).
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    These are some great questions, thanks.

    Women are a terrific spiritual resource in the church. We do not muzzle our women.
    Our Pastor was out sick this Sunday, so his wife preached. Is that what you call speaking in authority over men? We also have women pastors and board members.

    The Assemblies of God denomination has an excellent white paper on the subject.
    The Role of Women in Ministry
    Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | The Role of Women in Ministry

    A few months ago someone that had been attending for a while approached me to ask if we spoke in tongues. I assured him that we did. He was relieved to find out. It is rare to get a word of prophecy and even more rare to get a word in tongues. And leadership has handled this differently over the years. For a while we had a requirement to get permission from leadership before delivering a prophetic message to the church.

    Not in the sense that we schedule interpreters. It doesn't work that way. Interpretation works the same as prophecy. God moves on someone to interpret in the same way he moved on some to prophesy or speak in tongues. And you also need to understand that interpretation is not always a word for word translation.

    Two verses later that passage says the opposite, citing prophecy.
    You are limiting tongues to only one aspect. And applying the wrong kind of tongues to the passage. Have you seen my list of five different kinds of tongues? I'm glad that you are asking questions. This may help to clear up your ignorance on the subject.
    1 Corinthians 14:22
    Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

    1 Corinthians 14:24-25
    But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Yes. It may not be personally relevant, or you may even disagree with it. Although it is a funny thing. You may discover later that it was relevant or that you should have agreed with it. We don't drag prophets out back and stone them if we think they are false prophets.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Yes. I have personally experienced it. But only once, I believe. It was not uncontrollable, if you are wondering. But it was contagious. lol -- I would do it again.
    That's a cheap shot. The occult?
    There is nothing new about shaking and quaking.
    You have heard of the Shakers and the Quakers? (furniture and oat meal)
    I don't limit what God might do in certain situations. If everything else was in line, why not? I would keep an eye on something like that. And it would be highly irregular. I suppose you think the plug should be pulled on a meeting like that. Would you stand in God's way and prevent what the Holy Spirit might want to do in a meeting based on your comfort level? Which would be more sinful?
    I guess we call it "slain in the Spirit" if someone goes down on the carpet. I've been there many times. It's a wonderful thing. The Spirit of God wrapped around you like a warm blanket. I get up feeling spiritually refreshed. Haven't done it in years though. The church we attend now is pretty tame comparatively.

    In reference to being thrown back, I had one experience that was quite extraordinary in that respect. This is my personal testimony. I was there, obviously.

    I was in a meeting when a Pastor from Africa was speaking. Initially I was up on a raised walkway in back and could feel the heavy presence of God in the room. When I walked down toward the lower level it was like descending into a thick spiritual air. So thick you could cut it with a knife. At the end of the service people were going up for prayer from the speaker/Pastor. I asked my wife if she wanted to go up for prayer. She was nervous, so I offered to go with her. When it was our turn I stepped forward. My wife had her arm locked into mine. The Pastor reached out a hand to pray for us and there was the sound of a spark. We were both blown backwards off our feet and landed on our back. I turned in mid-air so that my wife would land on me and not the floor.

    I helped my wife get up and we approached again. The Pastor reached out his hand but then withdrew it exclaiming, "You're hot! You're hot!" The Spirit on me seemed to be threatening to burn his hand.

    I don't recall what happened after that, but the "spark" was memorable. I haven't thought about that for many years. If you saw something like that going on, I suppose you would probably run away in fear.
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    God said, "this scroll" four times. Was that not enough for you?
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Right.
    Evangelicals talk about God leading them all the time.

    - "God had a calling on my life."
    - "I felt led to go to Bible college."
    - "The Lord told me..."
    - "I was prompted to pray for you."

    But if they find out you are Pentecostal or Charismatic…

    - "It's the devil!"
    - "They do that in the occult."
    - "It's kundalini voodoo."
    - "If you are hearing voices, you should seek professional help."
    - "Was an interpreter present when you spoke in tongues in your prayer closet?"
     
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  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That sounds like the Brownsville, FL revival '95. I know it happened but I strongly doubt its validity. How does any of that honor God? How does it communicate the gospel to nonbelievers? I can't find any scriptural support for it. I remember hearing one "teacher" talking about the Holy Ghost bartender making people drunk on the spirit. I'm pretty sure that is not what Paul meant in Ephesians 5:18.
     
  11. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    The very first that says is actually wrong, i know that every believer has the Holy spirit in them but not everyone has the filling of the Holy spirit.

    Some believers in the bible were already converted, but when asked, did you receive the Holy spirit? they responded with: we not even heard of the Holy spirit.

    See this:

    “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
    This is the very same question you see charismatics ask, because its the same thing...

    He is obviously telling already believers if they received the Holy spirit, if everyone has the Holy spirit (the baptism or filling) when believing why is something that could be asked for or prayed or imposed hands for? i mean i already say that believers get the spirit, but he is talking about the filling of the Holy spirit.

    While Apollos was in the city of Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on his way to Ephesus. In Ephesus he found some other followers of the Lord. 2 He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

    These followers said to him, “We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit!”

    3 Paul asked them, “So what kind of baptism did you have?”

    They said, “It was the baptism that John taught.”

    4 Paul said, “John told people to be baptized to show they wanted to change their lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus.”

    5 When these followers heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came on them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying.7 There were about twelve men in this group.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  12. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I agreed until you threw in your human reasoning yet again. Paul was mentioning the Jews disobedience and judgment to show what type of sign tongue are to unbelievers - ANY unbelievers, not just Jews. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is in scripture, no twisting needed.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I read good majority of their article. However, they are in err because they claim certain words in the original languages changes the meaning of our English translations in our bibles. In essence, they know better than the translators of the Bible. This kind of handling of the Scriptures never sits well with me because it looks like folks merely trying to change the Bible using the "original languages" card (When in reality nobody knows biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek like those people who lived during bible times; Only in believing God's Word that says that had preserved His Word for our generation today is their hope and trust in what His Word plainly says). For we received the word not in the wisdom of men, but as the very words of God (See 1 Thessalonians 2:13).

    In fact, another problem I noticed in their article is that they just outright deny what 1 Timothy 2:11-15 says plainly.

    They mention Acts of the Apostles 2:17 in how sons and daughters will prophecy. Now, it is true; Acts of the Apostles 2:17 does mean that women can have the gift of prophecy (of tongues), but it was only devout Jewish men who actually spoke in foreign tongues at Pentecost (See Acts of the Apostles 2:5) along with Peter interpreting (See Acts of the Apostles 2:14-36). Nowhere do women speak in tongues having authority over a gathering of other believing men. That is what 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is all about.

    34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

    Women can be used to evangelize publicly (not in authority over other believing men), and they can teach other believing women and children.


    That does not answer my questions. Do you speak in two or three at most? Yes, or no?
    Do they all speak in turn? Or do all 2-3 of them speak at once?



    No. You are wrong. It did not work that way in the early church. 1 Corinthians 14 told the early church believers that they were to keep silent if there is no interpreter. So if you were to do it correctly like the early church, you have to have an interpreter ahead of time.

    27 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
    28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." (1 Corinthians 14:27-28).


    Perhaps I should have clarified. The purpose of tongues is for unbelievers.
    But coupled with an interpreter, it can be used for edifying the church.

    20 "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
    21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
    22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
    23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
    (1 Corinthians 14:20-23).

    For the Jew seen the speaking of foreign tongues as judgment because of the tower of babel, and the Babylonian exile (*cough* babel-lonian).

    But God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).
    If you don't see the problem with these things, I cannot help you.
    Only God can show you that such things are not of the Lord.
    Even many Charismatics see the problems with these kinds of things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Thank you for your kind words in agreement here.

    May God bless you today.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    My statement about unbelieving Jews was not meant to be an exhaustive statement. Of course it would also include the Gentile unbeliever, but the unbelieving Jew would recognize that it would mean judgment because of his study of the Scriptures.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Why would the Holy Spirit come upon them if they already had the Holy Spirit?
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    God speaks to us using His Word.

    Many times when we pray and we seek direction, we find a verse that gives us the answer we seek in which direction to go.
     
  18. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    Because is a different thing, you have the Holy spirit in you because you are alive, passed from death to life, but not the baptism or filling, because if you say that you receive all the Holy spirit automatically when converting, in the bible you have this example i showed and others of people being filled with the Holy spirit after conversion, like when the apostles and other people in a meeting were filled again with the Holy spirit, i don't remember the exact scripture, sometimes this needs to be renewed also.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    People need to understand that there is power in the Word of God to change our lives spiritually with the workin of God, and we do not need miraculous workings in order for that to happen.

    There is power in God's Word to change us.

    There is a new Christian movie that is out in select theaters that helps to illustrate how God's Word can change us. You can check out the trailer here:



    If you are interested, you can check out the showtimes here (to see if it is playing in your area):

    Play The Flute Movie


    Side Note:

    I have not seen the movie yet, but I am very excited to see it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The disciples had spiritual life while following Jesus (i.e. Christ gave them life by living in them spiritually). While the Holy Spirit worked with the disciples, they did not have the Holy Spirit living inside them yet until after Jesus had risen and He breathed the Spirit upon them (See John 20).
     
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