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Featured Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jan 3, 2019.

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  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    To all:

    God magnifies His Word above His name.
    We learn about the gospel and Jesus from the Bible.
    It is how we get saved to begin with and it is how we learn to walk with God in holiness.
    No outside revelation or vision in addition to the Bible can help with that.
    God's Word is confirmed by tons of evidences.
    Extra biblical outside revelations to the Bible cannot be confirmed in the same way.
    In most cases, they be disproven by looking at the unbiblical practices and the fruits of the individuals involved.
     
  2. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    So then, you have to own a Bible to get saved? And that was true for OT saints as well?

    That may or may not be true, but I accepted the Bible without 'tons of evidence'. I accepted it when the Holy Spirit convicted me, during a sermon. My foundation was a direct revelation known as the Inward Witness.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    To all:

    Another problem with the Charismatic movement is that if you ask them to test their ability on interpretations of tongues, they will not be able to prove that their interpretation is correct by the fact that they were not willing to take three different interpreters of tongues and separate them into different rooms so as to give their interpretation on that one particular unknown tongues message. They know that if they were to do this, their interpretations are not all going to match and be the same.

    But we are told to test the spirits to see whether they are of God. To prove all things and to hold to that which is good. I will stick with the Word of God (the Bible) that has proven itself divine over and over and not in some extra biblical revelation, prophecy, or tongues message today.

    I have God's Word, and it is more than enough.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    To all:

    Another problem I see in the Charismatic movement is that many of them think that tongues speaking is the way you authenticate whether you receive the Holy Spirit or not.

    Yet, Paul asks the rhetorical question in 1 Corinthians 12:30 "do all speak with tongues?" And the obvious answer to that question is a.... "no."

    For Paul said earlier:

    7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Proverbs 14:15 says, "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going."

    "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1).

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 says, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

    Paul said that the Scriptures were able to make the man of God "perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (See 2 Timothy 3:15-16).
     
  6. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    (1) The existence of a counterfeit doesn't preclude the possibility of the real gift.
    (2) You're contradicting Sola Scriptura. You're supposed to base your theology on Scripture alone, not on your observations of present-day charismatics. Either desist from those sorts of inferences, or desist from Sola Scriptura. You cannot have it both ways, unless you insist upon being a walking contradiction in terms who, as such, should be ignored.
    But you DON'T limit yourself to the Bible. Again, on what basis did you accept the Bible? You say, 'on tons of evidence'. What evidence? Regardless of what kind of 'evidence' it was, you've already proposed two separate kinds of authorities.
    (1) We can draw conclusions based on Scripture.
    (2) We can draw conclusions based on 'tons of evidence'
    Which contradicts the 'Sola' part of Sola Scriptura.

    I'll say it again. Sola Scriptura is a joke easily shown self-contradictory.
     
  7. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Enough, you say? Here's an example of the Inward Witness:

    "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba, g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children" (Rom 8)

    In your view, apparently, Paul was a fool, allowing himself to be led by the Spirit - extrabiblical revelation - when in fact he SHOULD have been relying on Sola Scriptura.

    But I ask you, what should sustain your saving faith from moment to moment? Tons of evidence? Because if you lose that saving faith, you've lost salvation. You might respond, 'I"m too smart for that. I'll never be outwitted by the devil, I will never lose my faith"

    Perhaps so. But what about those who are not as smart as you are?
    (1) Children
    (2) The mentally handicapped.
    (3) Uneducated people of third-world countries who simply can't AFFORD to buy a Bible.

    What kind of God do you serve? The kind that allows YOU, being smarter, to have an unfair advantage over THEM? Or maybe Calvin was right - saving faith is equally possible for all children and all men, by virtue of the Inward Witness?

    I think Calvin was right.
     
  8. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I should have mentioned another category:
    (4) YOU, when you're old and senile, with Alzheimer's disease, and you can no longer remember all that 'tons of evidence'. Is your saving faith in jeopardy then? Or will the Inward Witness sustain it?
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Do you believe in the Trinity or the Rapture of the church?
    Neither of those words can be found in the Bible.

    The outpouring at Pentecost is #5 below. Agree or disagree?

    Five Different kinds of tongues
    1)
    Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
    2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
    3) Prophetic ministry language - Addressing a message to the whole congregation
    4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
    5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
     
  10. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Thus in your view, the mysteries of Scripture are:
    (1) Easily discoverable to the Bible scholar (the seminarian).
    (2) Are not likely to be found via the pursuit of direct revelation.

    But that's the opposite of what Jesus taught, isn't it?

    "At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children" (Mat 11:25)

    Looks like direct revelation affords a distinct advantage over scholarship. Right? Equally interesting is Christ's next comment:

    “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him (verse 27).

    Looks like Calvin was right after all. You did NOT come to know the Lord via 'tons of evidence' but rather via direct revelation.
     
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  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Interesting to note that the scripture you quoted separates the "signs and wonders" from "gifts of the Holy Ghost". But when you discuss it you combine them. ("miraculous gifts") Which is more biblical?
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Wow. You throw out the first half of the verse and keep the second half.
    How can you "try the spirits" to see whether they are from God (which means some/many are) if there is no prophecy today?
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    But scripture (the Bible) had its origin in prophecy.
    The Bible should not be used to discredit its source. (prophecy)

    2 Peter 1:20-21
    Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    You are as ignorant about the interpretation of tongues as you are about prophecy.

    There is a difference between "translation" and interpretation. Even our Bible translations don't match. Are you ready to throw out all your Bibles? Since they don't match they are obviously flawed. Right?
     
  15. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Correct. The nature of a rhetorical question is to have an obvious answer.

    The real issue here, obviously, is whether you understood the QUESTION. Perhaps the question that YOU have in mind is not the same one that Paul was asking. For example I find it odd, if only a few can prophesy, that Paul commands the entire congregation to seek the greater gifts (12:31; 14:1, 39). Here's what Paul said:

    29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts (1Cor 12).

    A given congregation will have x-number of leaders at any given moment. Various factors can be in play here, however:
    (1) As the congregation expands, more leaders are needed.
    (2) As the congregation plants offspring-churches, more leaders are needed.
    (3) Rotation of responsibilities. In today's service,the Spirit told Bob to prophesy. In last Sunday's service, He told Sally to prophesy.

    But given the limited duration of a Sunday service, one thing we can be pretty sure of. In a given service, not ALL will prophesy, nor will all interpret tongues. Therefore I would have to agree with you - Paul's question does indeed have an obvious answer:

     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I read both posts, and do not see anything that would indicate that the gifts of the Spirit would cease before the end of the covenant, any more than a jot nor a tittle would end during the first covenant until it was fulfilled by the New Covenant.

    38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39

    Have all that will be called been called?

    8 The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless; 9 for in part we know, and in part we prophecy;10 and when that which is perfect may come, then that which in part shall become useless.

    When does a prophecy become useless? After it has been fulfilled. The second coming of Christ has yet to be fulfilled, so studying it is not useless.

    We are in the covenant of the law of liberty of the Spirit. The covenant of the law of sin and death is over for those who are Christians.

    As for the Corinthians, the misuse of the gifts does not negate the gifts themselves. John MacArthur says they had false gifts. At least you haven't said that! Paul already said they come short in no gift. IOW they had all of the gifts of the Spirit. By chapter 2 they had repented of their lack of love and permisivness.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  17. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    That happened in the 1830's with Edward UIrving's prophets. One who left the movement (Robert Baxter) said that if you believe they may be prophets you are likely to get the wromg answer.

    In the late 1600's a charismatic movement arose in the Cevennes. Many children were among the prophets, one not old enougn to speak or "to go on its own". These children often spoke in good French even though they only knew the local dialect. The main subject of their prophecy was the rapid downfall of Babylon, (the RCC) and Antichrist (the Pope).

    The scripture gives two test of false prophets. 1. Their prophecy does not come to pass. 2. It his prophecy comes to pass and he teaches the people to follow other gods, they are false prophets.

    Robert Baxter, mentioned above, said he spoke under a painful restraint, but later accused himself of being a false prophet, so that shows what concience does. not work. Concience can be corrupted. I find it somewhat heretical that you put concience above scripture.

    • 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    • 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
     
  18. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Your task to prove me wrong is simple, right? All you have to do is disprove one simple analogy about a little boy asked to clean his room every day of the week. Doesn't get any easier than that, right?

    Waiting...

    P.S. Well, honestly, even if you could disprove THAT example, we'd still need to discuss the Inward Witness -but at least you'd be off to a good start!
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    As for your denial of the Trinity:

    It is heretical to deny the Trinity;
    The Trinity is a core Christian doctrine founded in the Bible.

    Here is a short biblical defense of the Trinity:
    Oneness Pentecostalism is not Biblical.

    Here are 160 reasons Jesus is God:
    160 Reasons Jesus Christ is Almighty God
    (Note: I agree with their list of verses; That does not mean I agree with the author's other thoughts or beliefs).​

    As for your denial of the Pre-Trib Rapture:

    Well, after many years of biblical study and creating an End Times Chronology with Scripture, I believe the Bible teaches that there will be both a Pre-Trib Rapture, and a Mid-Trib Rapture.

    The Raptures are spiritual body type resurrections.
    With the exception of 1 Corinthians 15, the Resurrection of the Dead is generally referred to as a flesh and blood body type resurrection.

    For there are two types of resurrections (each in two phases) for believers.

    #1. A Spiritual resurrection to Heaven (with the Pre-Trib Rapture (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) (Luke 12:40), and the Mid-Trib Rapture (Luke 21:28) (Luke 17:31-37) (Matthew 24:15-22).

    #2. A flesh and blood body resurrection of the dead (Before the Millennium (Revelation 20:4), and then another one at the Judgment or after it, which is then followed by the beginning of the reign of Christ with His faithful ones upon the New Earth for all eternity (Revelation 20:5)).​

    As for Pentecost: They spoke foreign tongues according to Acts of the Apostles 2:4. So when they spoke to another, they spoke to that person in that person's language. If that person spoke back, they would speak back in the listener's language (i.e. they would also be speaking in a foreign tongue). They were able to understand each other (Which was a temporary reversal of the curse at Babylon). This was important because I believe that the early apostles were able to sometimes spread the gospel in other foreign languages by the power or gifting of the Holy Spirit to other nations. The foreign tongues also served as a sign of "judgment" to the Jew. For when the Jew went into the Babylonian Exile, they heard foreign tongues as a part of their judgment from God.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am glad that I am ignorant to things that cannot be verified (Which is unlike the Bible).

    I believe the Cambridge Edition King James (circa 1900) (The KJV listed at Biblehub.com courtesy of Bible Protector) is the perfect Word of God for our day. Before that time, the Bible perfectly existed in the Latin language. Before that time, the New Testament existed in the Greek, and the Old Testament existed in the Hebrew and Aramaic (Note: The book of Daniel was partially provided to us in Aramaic). The King James today is available in 7 other languages (Spanish, French, Dutch, Norwegian, Thai, Korean, and Brazilian Portuguese).

    As for Modern Translations: I believe that there are many problems with Modern Translations (and that the devil's name is placed within them sometimes); However, despite these problems, I myself use and encourage others to use Modern Translations so as to help update the 1600's English within the KJV. For 1600's English can sometimes be difficult to understand.

    But a person needs to have ONE final Word of authority. Otherwise, they can either make up their own Word of God, or be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine by the deceptions of other men. We need ONE nailed down Word of God that cannot be altered either by us or another. If not, then we are simply seeing what we want to see or making God and His ways what we desire and not what God desires. So I compare Modern Translations with the KJV. The KJV is my final Word of authority. The original languages can be helpful when we run into a challenging verse or word, but they should not be used as our final Word of authority. The English should not conflict with what the original languages say. For we have our English bibles based on what the original languages say. We did not grow up speaking biblical Hebrew, and biblical Greek to truly have any kind of authority in what these languages say. Even the scholars are interpreting these language hindsight and they did not live during Bible times. There are also two sets of manuscripts. The Textus Receptus (i.e. the line of manuscripts used for the KJV), and the Majority Text (NT Critical Text - which is the line of manuscripts used for the Modern Translations). So there are two vines. From my study on this topic, I have seen how some men (not all) can tend to drift away from God's Word who did not believe that we have a perfect Word of God for our day in our own language.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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