Cessationism "New" Revelation?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Healers never go to hospitals and tongues are not interpreted. Why should i believe in either?

It is interesting that when Jesus healed the lame man at the pool of Bethseda there were many other disabled people there too, but He didn't heal them. But He healed all those who came to Him for healing.


So, He doesn't heal those who don't ask for it. That is why He would not have gone into a hospital and healed everyone. Also, He knew that those who followed Him just for the healings and the free lunches were just superficial believers. When He put the hard word on them to identify with His death, most of these superficial believers left Him.


So these healing evangelists get the big crowds who are not coming to Jesus to be identified with His death on the cross, and this is seen where the true gospel is never preached in those services. They are there just for the healing and signs and wonders, which makes them superficial believers as viewed by Jesus when similar crowds came to Him for the same things.


God is sovereign. He does things His way, and not when we demand it. It is not that healing is denied, but that God chooses Himself when and where to heal someone, not as a vending machine to produce it on demand.


Concerning tongues - we need to go to the text of 1 Corinthians 14 and see what Paul actually teaches about it. It is significant that in 1 Corinthians 1 he says that what he is teaching is not only for the Corinthians church, but for all Christians everywhere. His intention is for this letter to be read in all the churches, because what he taught the Corinthians was the right way to go about worship and doctrine and it applies to every Christian church, including those of our generation. We need to study the text of the chapter, because according to Paul it applies as much to us as it did to the Corinthians and every other Christian church. We need to study the text without overlaying it with the suppositions of those who have decided of themselves that tongues is not real today. I put it to you that you cannot show me one Scripture that clearly states that tongues and prophecy as taught in 1 Corinthians was meant to be temporary and was not for the church right through to the second coming of Christ. You can't, because there is no such reference anywhere in the actual text.


So, if you want to dream up your own opinions that's your affair, but don't expect me to agree with you that the Bible says these gifts were just temporary when the Bible says no such thing!


I will go as far as to say, because Paul was teaching Scripture, equivalent to the commands of Jesus through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and because He said that His friends were those who did what He commanded, we really do need to filter out the Cessationist teaching of those who decide not to take 1 Corinthians 14 seriously, and seek the Lord whether we are, in fact, being obedient to all that He commanded, either from Himself directly, or by the Holy Spirit through Paul.

 

[Sabertooth]

So, where did these Cessationists get their "new revelations" that are not in the written Word?

It is Naturalism all dressed up for "church." The supernatural scares a certain type of person. It brings to the fore how minimal their control is of their own lives. It is a type of cognitive dissonance.

I have even met "christians" who deny a literal Satan & Lake of Fire.* It is like they want the "positive" truths of Christianity, but won't be bothered by the "uncomfortable" ones.

*IIRC, that was the position of the Sadducees.

 

[bmjackson]

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. [11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

So the difference is in 'when that which is perfect is come'. Cessationists say that it is the completion of scripture. I do not believe that is correct. Charismatics say it is when Jesus returns. I do not believe that is correct either as Perfection is expected in this life:

• Philippians 3:15: “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
• Colossians 1:28: “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:”
• Colossians 4:12: “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”
• 2 Timothy 3:16-17: “[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
• Hebrews 5:14: “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

What the verses are saying is that when the perfection or completion arrives, that part which was incomplete is overruled and Paul goes on to decribe the comparison as being like an adult to the childish state and all of his writings were to encourage believers to leave the child like state behind:

Eph 4: 11 And He gave some apostles, some evangelists, some prophets, some pastors and teachers 12 for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 til;l we all come unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleigh of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lay in wait to deceive; 15 but speaking the truth in love may grow up into Him in all things whcih is the head even Christ.

These things are regarding prophecy and knowledge, which will become complete in perfection. It will no longer be hit or misss - sometimes getting it right. However Paul gives another word for tongues here. They will cease and according to the Greek from an outside agency. The same word is not used for prophecy and knowledge.

We can see that indeed this is what occured, as there was no mention of them again in the rest of the letters and the early church fathers and significantly, during the revival of holiness teaching in the 17th - 20 centuries from Wesley onwards. Wesley spoke against them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. [11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

So the difference is in 'when that which is perfect is come'. Cessationists say that it is the completion of scripture. I do not believe that is correct. Charismatics say it is when Jesus returns. I do not believe that is correct either as Perfection is expected in this life:

• Philippians 3:15: “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
• Colossians 1:28: “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:”
• Colossians 4:12: “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”
• 2 Timothy 3:16-17: “[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
• Hebrews 5:14: “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

What the verses are saying is that when the perfection or completion arrives, that part which was incomplete is overruled and Paul goes on to decribe the comparison as being like an adult to the childish state and all of his writings were to encourage believers to leave the child like state behind:

Eph 4: 11 And He gave some apostles, some evangelists, some prophets, some pastors and teachers 12 for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 til;l we all come unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleigh of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lay in wait to deceive; 15 but speaking the truth in love may grow up into Him in all things whcih is the head even Christ.

These things are regarding prophecy and knowledge, which will become complete in perfection. It will no longer be hit or misss - sometimes getting it right. However Paul gives another word for tongues here. They will cease and according to the Greek from an outside agency. The same word is not used for prophecy and knowledge.

We can see that indeed this is what occured, as there was no mention of them again in the rest of the letters and the early church fathers and significantly, during the revival of holiness teaching in the 17th - 20 centuries from Wesley onwards. Wesley spoke against them.

If perfection is attainable in this life, give us a list of those who have achieved it in the last 2000 years.

 

[bmjackson]

If perfection is attainable in this life, give us a list of those who have achieved it in the last 2000 years.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Psalm 18:32
The God who girds me with strength And makes my way blameless?

Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 11:40
because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

James 1:4
And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 13:10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Ephesians 5:27
that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Daniel 3:25
He said, "Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!"

Philippians 2:15
so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

1 Timothy 6:14
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 7:11
Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

2 Peter 3:14
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

Revelation 14:5
And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Ezekiel 28:12
"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel 27:3
and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrance to the sea, merchant of the peoples to many coastlands, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "O Tyre, you have said, 'I am perfect in beauty.'

Ezekiel 27:4
"Your borders are in the heart of the seas; Your builders have perfected your beauty.

Ezekiel 27:11
"The sons of Arvad and your army were on your walls, all around, and the Gammadim were in your towers. They hung their shields on your walls all around; they perfected your beauty.

Ezekiel 16:14
"Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you," declares the Lord GOD.

Lamentations 2:15
All who pass along the way Clap their hands in derision at you; They hiss and shake their heads At the daughter of Jerusalem, "Is this the city of which they said, 'The perfection of beauty, A joy to all the earth'?"

2 Samuel 14:25
Now in all Israel was no one as handsome as Absalom, so highly praised; from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head there was no defect in him.

Daniel 1:4
youths in whom was no defect, who were good-looking, showing intelligence in every branch of wisdom, endowed with understanding and discerning knowledge, and who had ability for serving in the king's court; and he ordered him to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.

James 3:2
or we all stumble in many ways If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

2 Corinthians 12:9
And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Psalm 18:32
The God who girds me with strength And makes my way blameless?

Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 11:40
because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

James 1:4
And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 13:10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Ephesians 5:27
that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Daniel 3:25
He said, "Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!"

Philippians 2:15
so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

1 Timothy 6:14
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 7:11
Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

2 Peter 3:14
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

Revelation 14:5
And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Ezekiel 28:12
"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel 27:3
and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrance to the sea, merchant of the peoples to many coastlands, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "O Tyre, you have said, 'I am perfect in beauty.'

Ezekiel 27:4
"Your borders are in the heart of the seas; Your builders have perfected your beauty.

Ezekiel 27:11
"The sons of Arvad and your army were on your walls, all around, and the Gammadim were in your towers. They hung their shields on your walls all around; they perfected your beauty.

Ezekiel 16:14
"Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you," declares the Lord GOD.

Lamentations 2:15
All who pass along the way Clap their hands in derision at you; They hiss and shake their heads At the daughter of Jerusalem, "Is this the city of which they said, 'The perfection of beauty, A joy to all the earth'?"

2 Samuel 14:25
Now in all Israel was no one as handsome as Absalom, so highly praised; from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head there was no defect in him.

Daniel 1:4
youths in whom was no defect, who were good-looking, showing intelligence in every branch of wisdom, endowed with understanding and discerning knowledge, and who had ability for serving in the king's court; and he ordered him to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.

James 3:2
or we all stumble in many ways If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

Thanks for all the Scriptures! Okay, that's the Scriptural standard, which I fully agree with. Now, you need to answer my question. Who do you know, or know of who has ever reached the stage where they are absolutely perfect in all respects?

 

[bmjackson]

Thanks for all the Scriptures! Okay, that's the Scriptural standard, which I fully agree with. Now, you need to answer my question. Who do you know, or know of who has ever reached the stage where they are absolutely perfect in all respects?

I have heard of many who claim to have reached this stage of perfection which is absolute observance to the will of God through faith in the power of the Blood, and the witness of their fellow believers to their claims. They have the same story of how they reached this state and powerful stories and how they were used by God subsequent to their perfection. They were the great saints of old who led thousands to Christ. They began their journey's through getting to the Romans 7 stage of a walk of failure leading to a quest to seek the power that had been missing.

To deny these testimonies is to be foolish in the extreme especially as they had eye witnes confirmation but there you go - man will believe what he wants to, and in this day and age of great darkness, there is little to convince him unless he will read from the past.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have heard of many who claim to have reached this stage of perfection which is absolute observance to the will of God through faith in the power of the Blood, and the witness of their fellow believers to their claims. They have the same story of how they reached this state and powerful stories and how they were used by God subsequent to their perfection. They were the great saints of old who led thousands to Christ. They began their journey's through getting to the Romans 7 stage of a walk of failure leading to a quest to seek the power that had been missing.

To deny these testimonies is to be foolish in the extreme especially as they had eye witness confirmation but there you go - man will believe what he wants to, and in this day and age of great darkness, there is little to convince him unless he will read from the past.

Ah! But that's what they say! But do their wives and children confirm their perfection? Anyone can claim perfection and appear so to those who don't know them intimately, but ask a wife, a mother, or a father if the person is perfect, and it might be interesting what their response may be. You see, it is not what people think, or say. It is what they do when they are not at church around their Christian or religious peers.

It is interesting that most of the greatest saints of God whom I have read about, have said about themselves that they were far from perfect.

 

[bmjackson]

I am sure that at least their adult children would want to put the record straight, but no sign of that. I do not know of any writings from close relatives to testify. In the past, I expect it was not something they thought was necessary when people believed in it anyway. I am sure that there will be some testimony around but the silence of their close relatives speaks volumes to me.

But anyway, they would be obeying scripture that tells us to avoid pointless disputes and they would not be going around telling everyone they do not sin. And they would say that they themselves are worthless and any rightousness they had was His.

 

[Francis Drake]

If perfection is attainable in this life, give us a list of those who have achieved it in the last 2000 years.

Oh come on Oscarr, we have met quite a number on this forum who have convinced themselves that they no longer sin!