Cessationism: Have the gifts ceased?

[Thunderchild]

Snup> Where does it say that a person will not receive the Holy Spirit unless he is first saved?

Andrew> I see that the same passage makes no mention of repentance, nor even grace. But what does it mean to believe in the Christ? Does it mean no more than believe that Jesus Christ exists? or that he is God? Or does it mean something more?

Let us say that I believe in my friend... what does THAT statement mean?

 

[Thunderchild]

OK - "If there are gifts, they will cease" seems to be the gist of that thumping great screed which ignores the fact that the passage containing that statement is not about the gifts, but about the superlative nature and enduring qualities of love. It is not a passage about the gifts, but about the fact that the gifts are worthless without love. Love outlasts something that will cease to exist sometime in the next few years? Or love outlasts something that will be around for thousands of years? Which is the better illustration of the enduring nature of love?

Nonetheless, the statement IS made that the gifts will not be available forever. Aside from wishful thinking, what is there to show that their term will end with the completion of the Bible (assuming it IS complete, that is)? "When I became a man, I caused to cease the things of the infant." Are the gifts here being likened to the toys of infancy? It would seem so. So we are looking not at the advent of an outside change, but an internal change - the maturity (perfection) of the individual. Certainly that is it - "Now I know in part, then I will know fully" ... But is there anything in the Bible that declares when the gifts will cease, that is, when will the New Covenant be fulfilled - for the gifts are promised as an integral part of the new covenant.

I would expect that if the gifts were slated to be withdrawn, there would be more evidence available by way of support than a single reference which makes no clearly defined assertion as to when that will occur. Perhaps a simple list of all the supporting texts might give a better overview, Cougan.

 

[SnuP]

"When that which is perfect has come"

I have in the past said that this refers to Christ, but after reading your post it occurs to me that it could very easily be refering to the church.  That which is perfect:  our understanding of God, our maturity, our ability to do God's will, our ability to be perfect, our ability to understand each other, out ability to love each other unselfishly, out ability to remain in unity.

 

[Thunderchild]

And having examined the passage at length, relying on the Holy Spirit for elucidation - which would have been un-necessary if I had thought to open my Concordant Bible, the explanation has become clear. In reading the Concordant Bible, what I understood is confirmed to be accurate.

1Cr 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

Prophecy and Tongues will fail.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I understood as a child (a child sees as one who looks into a *mirror, but a mature man sees clearly), but when I became a man I put away the things of childhood. In the same way prophecy will be done away with. Who does away with prophecy and or knowledge? The person who is fully mature, having no need of the supports of childhood. When does spiritual childhood end? For now I know in part and prophesy in part, but then(when I am fully mature) I will see face to face/clearly.) When does this particular "childhood" end? In my opinion, with regard to this particular passage, at the individual's death.

*mirrors in that time being somewhat clouded - and do not show a completely true image, but reversed.

But take a look at the whole as presented in the Concordant Bible, and the passage becomes far more clear.


Love is never lapsing: yet, whether prophecies, they will be discarded, or languages, they will cease, or knowledge, it will be discarded. For out of an instalment are we knowing, and out of an instalment are we prophesying. Now whenever maturity may be coming, that which is out of an instalment shall be discarded. When I was a minor, I took account of things as a minor. Yet when I have become a man, I have discarded that which is a minor's. For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognise according as I am recognised also. Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love - these three. Yet the greatest of these is love. Be pursuing love. Yet be zealoous for spiritual endowments, yet rather that you be prophesying.

 

[Thunderchild]

Snup> Ah yes.

That which is perfect: our understanding of God, our maturity, our ability to do God's will, our ability to be perfect, our ability to understand each other, out ability to love each other unselfishly, out ability to remain in unity.

a VERY clear exposition of that bit.... Do you mind if I pinch it?

The section at 1 Corinthians 12:30-31 (again from the Concordant version) shows your post to be accurate.

"Not all have powers. Not all have the graces of healing. Not all are speaking languages. Not all are interpreting. Yet be zealous for the greater graces. And still I am showing you a path suited to transcendence." (This opening the aside) with "...yet then I shall recognise according as I am recognised also. Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love - these three. Yet the greatest of thes is love. Be pursuing love. Yet be zealous for spiritual endowments" marking a return to the discussion of spiritual gifts. 

 

 

 

[SnuP]

That's it.

When my relationship with God is perfect, why would I need a prophet to tell me thus says the Lord.  I would already know, for there would know longer be any walls of my flesh between me and God.  And I won't need tongues any more for I will always know what to say.  And I won't need healing anymore for the ressurection power of Christ will destroy any works of death, and healing will be a normal part of my immune system.

When my relationship with others is perfect I will always know the right words to say.  They will always know exactly what I mean. and the love and life of Christ will always flow between us.

Wow

I think I just described the resurected body that we are to recieve after the second coming.

Totally cool

 

[Andrew]

TC,

quote:"But what does it mean to believe in the Christ?"

It means to believe that he Lord God, saviour, and that he rose from the dead.

I thot it was quite clear in that verse I gave -- that if you confess Jesus is Lord... believe God raised him from the dead. -- basically acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Saviour (what we tell people when we lead them to Christ). It's very simple -- and God knows who's being sincere and who's not when the confession is made.

 

[Thunderchild]

Andrew> No - placing ones faith in the Christ does not mean merely believing those points to be true. You have said it yourself: one must CONFESS Jesus Christ as his Lord. That is to say, the claim that "Jesus Christ is my Lord" must needs be true. And it is pointed out in no uncertain terms that a person who sins does not have Christ as his Lord, but rather, that person's own desire is his lord.

My goodness, Snup. However did you come to such a conclusion? Surely you don't believe what the Bible has to say - how so very improper of you. Don't you know that you are supposed to believe the Bible only when it agrees with the theologians?

 

[Andrew]

quote: "Andrew> No - placing ones faith in the Christ does not mean merely believing those points to be true. You have said it yourself: one must CONFESS Jesus Christ as his Lord."

TC,
I think the problem here is trying to come up with a fixed formula or '7 steps' to being saved. There is no formula, only guidelines -- leave the rest to God for "2Tim 2:19 The Lord knoweth them that are his."

Salvation is not a difficult, complicated thing that requires plenty of effort and careful 'right' steps. That's why Paul says its 'near you and in your mouth'...

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9* That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Thunderchild]

9* That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Thunderchild]

To whom does God grant the Holy Spirit?

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by cougan

This one cracked me up. Perhaps you don't see the humor in it. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you are saying that people that are being guided by the holy spirit cant hear to well. Some of them here parts of what he is trying to say and others hear something else. This reminds of the commericals on TV about Cell Phones. Wife asks her husband to bring something home but because of the static he brings something different home than what she asked for. Thank you for such a good laugh.

But seriously when they in the 1st century spoke these parts of revealation that was revealed to them it wasnt fuzzy they did not get part of the message given to them they got the whole part not part of the part. Once again let us revisit 1 cor 13. 

Sorry cougan but I was not referring to they, I was referring to us.  And it's Paul who said it, not me.

In your estimation of things, do you know everything there is to know about God, His ways, His thoughts, and His plans?

 

 

[Thunderchild]

Actually, Cougan had a point - the bits that are heard are heard clearly enough, but that is as far as it goes. There remains the difficulty of retaining what has been heard - as one becomes more accustomed to the experience, it becomes easier.

You will note that Snup and I each had different points of view regarding "when the perfect comes." Snup puts it at the time of Christ's return, I put at at the time when a person is before the throne after he dies. (the reason is simple enough, it results from differences in understanding regarding post death experience.) - but what was filtered through the individual's understanding is plain enough: not in this lifetime.

There remains the matter of each receiving a DIFFERENT part, and that depends to some extent on the direction of approach by the person. For Snup, the focus was "when does the perfect come?" - and he had the answer to that question.

For my part, I was searching for the answer to the question, "Why would God revoke the gifts at any time?" - and the answer was clear enough (after some searching and making no headway - the only thing I could see was that the English translation did not match the Greek. The concept that God does away with the gifts, being not within the English translation, but within my interpretation of it.)

 

[cougan]

I hope to be able to post respond tonight. I am using the office computer right now. Last night I got to make a few post before the lighting blew up my modem. I should have my new modem installed today so I can re enter into this discussion once again. Even If I am the outcast

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Actually, Cougan had a point - the bits that are heard are heard clearly enough, but that is as far as it goes. There remains the difficulty of retaining what has been heard - as one becomes more accustomed to the experience, it becomes easier.

You will note that Snup and I each had different points of view regarding "when the perfect comes." Snup puts it at the time of Christ's return, I put at at the time when a person is before the throne after he dies. (the reason is simple enough, it results from differences in understanding regarding post death experience.) - but what was filtered through the individual's understanding is plain enough: not in this lifetime.

There remains the matter of each receiving a DIFFERENT part, and that depends to some extent on the direction of approach by the person. For Snup, the focus was "when does the perfect come?" - and he had the answer to that question.

For my part, I was searching for the answer to the question, "Why would God revoke the gifts at any time?" - and the answer was clear enough (after some searching and making no headway - the only thing I could see was that the English translation did not match the Greek. The concept that God does away with the gifts, being not within the English translation, but within my interpretation of it.)

 

Exactly!  Thanks thunderchild.  

And cougan, I don't consider you an outcast.  I consider you my brother who has yet to be enlightened on the subject of gifts for today 

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Snup> Where does it say that a person will not receive the Holy Spirit unless he is first saved? 

The consept is based on logic.  The spirit of a man can hold man faul things including demons.  But this is the home of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit can not reside in an unregenerated spirit.  God is Life, when He comes in He brings life and that life regenerates everything under its authority.  Therefore the spirit will be regernerated.  Win a person recieves Jesus, this is the first process that occures.  But God desires permission inorder that the rest of the man be regenerated.  This is the salvation of the soul that I have refered to in past post.  So a person cannot recieve the Holy Spirit without being regenerated by Him.  So he can't recieve the Holy Spirit without being saved or saved first.

 

[sola fide]

Originally posted by SnuP


The consept is based on logic.  The spirit of a man can hold man faul things including demons.  But this is the home of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit can not reside in an unregenerated spirit.  God is Life, when He comes in He brings life and that life regenerates everything under its authority.  Therefore the spirit will be regernerated.  Win a person recieves Jesus, this is the first process that occures.  But God desires permission inorder that the rest of the man be regenerated.  This is the salvation of the soul that I have refered to in past post.  So a person cannot recieve the Holy Spirit without being regenerated by Him.  So he can't recieve the Holy Spirit without being saved or saved first.

I know this is off the subject of this thread, but I had to point something out about this statement.
If the a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit until after being saved...how is the person saved?...by his own power?

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[cougan]

Ok did you even read all of my post 156? How could it be put more clearly? Explain to me how it doesnt make sense.

Vrs 9 says the know in part and prophesy in part.

Vrs 10 says that when the complete comes (that is when all these parts in verse are come together) then the spirtual gifts will cease.

vrs 11 restates this idea. It is basical saying while we the church have only the parts right now we are like children we are imature but growing. When the parts all come together then there will be no more need for spirtual gifts to confirm the complete since all the parts have already been confirmed. We then having all the parts can now be mature and not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine

vrs 12 Here is restresses the idea again. Since we only have part of the complete right now it is like looking in a dim mirror because we can not yet see the complete of the parts. Paul says that he only knows in part at that time. But when the complete comes he then will be able to know all the parts put together just as he is known. We today know posseses these parts that make up the complete word of God that we have in our bible. We do not know in part today because we have the whole or the complete word of God. You guys didnt make one comment on the fact that James 1:25 is that perfect or complete talked about here in 1 cor 13. Yes we can now see clearly in the mirror as we look into the perfect law of liberty. TC I really dont see any merrit to you death idea. You are claiming that we can not spirtually mature until we die. How can we be spiritual mature when we are dead. Reaching spiritual maturity does not mean that we can not be taught anything new or that we know every singel thing the bible says. We are always to keep adding to our faith and growing in grace. We are to continue to study or bibles and pray.

The reasons seems to me why you resist this very clear and easy to understand view is because if you accepted it then it would mean that miracles and tongue speaking are not here today. But since you guys feel like you have seen miracles and spoke in tongues or have experienced a sign personally you will have to grasp any little thing you can to keep from excepting this view. You probably say to yourself this view cant possible be true becaue I know that miracle are here today by my own eyes. Maybe this has never sank in to your thoughts. But where is the proof. I see claim after claim but NO ONE offers proof that proves what they are saying is true. I asked for someone to show me a video of a VISABLE miracle. No one has because it does not exist. The miracles you see today are those found after the fact. They have these big gatherings then the people come up and say this has been healed or that has been healed, but they never show it happeing on the stage where the camars can see it. I could be wrong but from my memory I do not remember any instance of this in the bible. Where they are speaking to the crowd and they say something like someone cancer just left them, someone that was having back trouble just left them. No you see them putting there hands on them or praying over them and they are healed in front of others where they can see it. The closest thing I can think of someone being healed without being in direct contact with laying on of hands was the few times that someone would come to Jesus on a indvidual basis and ask him to heal someone and he would say something to the effect it is done and when they went back to their home the person would be healed. Notice how this completly differs from what is done today. That reminds of another good opertuninty for you to show me how it is I am so blind to miracles today. Have one of your prophets or apostles bless a rag or scarf and send it to me in the mail so that at the touch of this rag or scarf my wife will be healed of her TMJ and neck problem. This is what the people did with either Pauls or Peters ( which everone it was) garment and the people would touch this garment and they will be healed. I keep giving you opertunities to show me I am wrong. I have asked for the following now.

A video tape of a visual miracle like a withered hand becomeing whole
I asked Snup to prophecy to me about something that would soon come to pass. I even asked for people to pray that my wifes Neck and TMJ would be healed instantly. Now I give you another chance with sending me a garment in the mail for my wife to touch.

Will you step up to the challenge and put me in my place. I have stated it over and over again if you could give me proof I will start preaching miracles tommorrow. I have no problem changing my views if I find them wrong.

Now TC do think that the people in the first centure had to go through some learning process to understand what the Holy Spirit was saying? I have abosolutly no doubt that if the HS was speaking to me as it did to those in the first century that it would be a clear as a bell. You are limiting the power of the HS saying that a person might not understand what he is saying until he gets used to the encounter. How can the HS guide you into all truth Jn 16:13 if you cant understand him?

You see when I asked you guys to relie on the HS you claim to have guiding you directly seperate and apart from the word you guys failed horrible. One says this one says that. Just futher proof that the HS does not guide people directly anymore but guides indirectly through the word. You can see that in the latter books of the bible that the signs and miracles start fading away they are mentioned less and less. In fact you can see in 2Tim 2:1-2 that Timothy was to teach faithfull men the things he heard so they could teach others. There would be no need for him to do this if the HS was still guiding into all truth providing spirtial knowledge because they would not need it taught to them. That is also why he stress to Timothy in 2Tim 2:15 to study to show himself aproved rightly divinding the word. There would be no need to study if he was going to continue to be guided by the HS. Then we see in 2Tim 3:16-17 that the complete word that we have can make us mature or complete because with it we can reproof , correct and instruct because the word of God throghly equips us to do so. Again if we are able to become mature from the word by study and being a doer of it then where or where does that leave for a purpose of the miracles. I have clearer showed you the purpose of the miracles were to confirm the parts of revealation that they were speaking were from God and that the 2nd or added bonus was the healings. In my next post I will deal with the baptism thing.

 

[SnuP]

sola, Thunderchild and I were refering to teo distincively different impartations of the Holy Spirit, one at salvation, and then the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  I was trying to make the point that the baptism cannot occur until the first (when the spirit of a man is sweep clean).  The baptism of the Holy Spirit occures when the Spirit of God Burst forth out of the spirit of the man to overtake all aspects of the man (allowing that the man has given God permission first).

 

[sola fide]

Oh I see, man has to give God permission...interesting.

Soli Deo gloria!