Cessationism: Have the gifts ceased?

[e4God]

Never Play it SAFE with God....  He said his people would.  BE BOLD and DO EXPLOITS.

Sometimes when you pray within your gifts, you get a nudge from the spirit and you know whether to pray for a miracle, or for the grace to accept no as an answer.  Sometimes you know what God is going to do.  And sometimes it is only wishful thinking or hoping... 

Sometimes you KNOW what God is doing and you can join in....  Other times our own emotions get in the way.  I have been almost 100% sure God was going to heal somebody, only to see that healing not take place.  I have been almost 100% sure somebody was going to die, and watched God heal them. 

What's the difference? ? ?  Only God's will.  Who can know the mind of God ? ? ?

Again, based on biblical example, the outcome has no bearing on ANYTHING.   I have prayed for healing, only to see a man die.  Though I grieved the failure of the prayer, the Pastor presiding simply smiled and said, "That soul is now out of pain, no longer encumbered by a dying body.  Sounds like 100% healing to me."  When you pray for healing, one must be willing to accept no as the answer...  If God has other plans, that has to be OK too.

Romans 8:28 is still in the Bible.  All things work together for Good, so let them work!!!!  Whether you understand or agree matters not.  

But one could NEVER be faulted for hoping for healing for another child of God.  Pray fervently and see what God will do!  That is all any of us can do, but it is more than mere humans can do! 

so...  BE BOLD AND DO EXPLOITS !!!

Originally posted by Thunderchild
The possibility exists, Snup, that I am wrong in this matter - of that I am aware. But taking EVERYTHING that the Bible has to say into account, "Not all are apostles, not all are teachers. Not all have powers. Not all have the graces of healing. Not all are speaking languages. Not all are interpreting," for instance, I deem it better for the nonce to play it safe. Better "to not be hasty about laying on the hands" than to have to apologise to Cougan, his wife, and God himself for over-stepping the bounds of due authority. Not to mention that I have nothing to demonstrate that I (or any other given person) is appointed to bring healing to Cougan's wife. What if it turns out that I am trying to horn in on another's territory? However, I turn to you and to e4 - asking that you both seek God's will on this, as I shall myself do.

Cougan is not asking that be prayer be offered for his wife's healing, but that she receive a miracle of healing. I find that he is laying out a fleece, and that therefore, this should be done... but by whom?

 

[cougan]

EvGod welcome to this disscussion. I doubt very seriously you have read all the previous post so let me bring  you up to speed. I study my bible every single day and pray all the time and I ask God to reveal to me if I am teaching anything in error. From all my studying that I have done It seems clear to me that the miracles and tongues were limted to the first century. I have for 2 years now searched out looking for any evidence of any true signs or miracles that can be confirmed without any doubts. However my effort to find one has failed. I have tried very hard to follow up on these claims and have even went to a miracle service and watched very closely and no bibical miracles were performed. Now just so you know I have absolutely no doubt that this miracle healing on my wife can be performed if the gifts of the HS are here today like they were in the 1century. I do not doubt the power of God and the miracles done in the 1st century. So far God has not showed me any other truth then the one I proclaim on this board. If one day I see or experience a 1st century miracle I will proclaim it from the roof tops. I ask the Lord to use me in anyway that he can. I have access to a whole lot of people. I am very well respected in my church and community. I would not hold back to profess God miracelous healing power to everyone I know. If I proclaimed it people would be very willing to accept what I have stated. So that is why this is a golden oppertunity for this healing of my wife take place. So dont try and put me the same class as a Pharisee or those that were just wanting to see some miracle because it was cool to watch. The Pharisees saw some of the miracles first hand and the could not deny them but they still would not except Jesus as being the son of God.  I however would not do this. If I saw a visable miracle or even if my wifes problems are healed I would know that a miracles has been done and I would change my view and glorify God for opening my eyes.

You know its quit interesting that miracle healing were mainly done on unbelivers those that were not already christians. You know it was not always necessary for someone to have faith to be healed. You are going to have a difficult time explaining John 9. Here you have a blind man that was healed by Jesus but the man had no idea who Jesus was. So he was healed before he had faith. He had no idea he was the son of God until later after being questioned by the Pharisees how it was he came to see. How much faith did the dead guy have that was being carried out of the city that Jesus raised? Now it would be good for you to read this article.

 It should be clear that the miracles performed by Jesus were not dependent on the faith of the recipient.  For example, the "dumb man possessed with a devil" in Matt. 9:32-33 was healed by Jesus with no indication of faith on the part of the man who was healed.  The man with the "withered hand" in Matt. 12:10-14 was healed without evidence of his faith in Jesus.  There is a also a general statement in Matt. 14:14 and Matt. 19:1-2 regarding multitudes who were healed without any indication that the Lord required them to have faith before they could be healed. These examples (and there are others which could be cited) show clearly that the healing done by Jesus in His earthly ministry was not dependent on the recipient's faith.  The "lack of faith" on the part of the sick is simply something that modern-day deceivers attempt to hide behind because they cannot perform the miracles that they claim.  Such statements show the falsity of their teaching and the sham of their pretended miracles.

    Sometimes in miracles of healing Jesus referred to the faith of the one who was healed.  Note first the woman "which was diseased with an issue of blood" (Matt. 9:20).  On that occasion "Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.  And the woman was made whole from that hour" (Matt. 9:22).  "Her faith had brought her to Jesus ....  Her faith was not the source of her healing, but it had brought her into touch with Jesus who had the power to heal."<6> McGarvey further observed the following on Jesus' remark about her faith:

    "The way in which her faith had made her whole is very apparent, and it illustrates the manner in which faith saves us from sin.  It caused her to force her way through the crowd until she could touch the garment of Him from whom the deliverance was to come.  Had she stopped short of this, her faith would not have made her whole.  In like manner faith saves the sinner, not by the mere fact that he believes, but by that which it leads him to do.  It brings him through the pangs of sorrow, and the deep resolve of repentance, to the public confession of Jesus and baptism into His name, and thus, by bringing him in the appointed way to Jesus who saves, it saves him."<7>

    Again, the two blind men were healed by Jesus when "...touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you" (Matt. 9:29). Their faith was active and had caused them to go to the house where Jesus was, to recognize Him as the Messiah, the "Son of David," and to confess Him as "Lord" (Matt. 9:27-28).  Though these men had not seen the miracles that Jesus had done, they believed in Him and believed that He was able to heal them.  Jesus no doubt called attention to the faith of these men in order that those observing the miracle would also come to believe.  One clear purpose of all the miracles that Jesus performed was to cause belief in those who saw them.  John wrote of this purpose, "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20:30-31).

    "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" (Matt. 13:58).  Mark's parallel record of this occasion points out that Jesus did lay hands on "a few sick folk, and healed them" (Mark 6:5).  "The unbelief of the people limited the mighty works which Jesus otherwise would have done."<8>  How sad for them.  Only a few were healed when many could have been had it not been for their unbelief.  Their hearts were so hardened against Jesus that even seeing the miracles that Jesus could have done before them would not have persuaded them that He was the Messiah. "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).  Unbelief always results in loss.

So you see I am just seeking the truth. I am studying and praying that I not teach a false doctrine. I think it would be great if the miracles were still here but until I see visable proof or God corrects me I continue to show from scripture why I believe that tongues and miracles and miracelous knowledge ceased in the first century.

 

[Thunderchild]

It should be clear that the miracles performed by Jesus were not dependent on the faith of the recipient.

My point exactly - If a person lays hands on another for healing, and that other is not healed, it is not due to a fault on the part of that other. No healing in such circumstances shows that the person laying hands on the person who needed it has acted outside the will of God. (this is a different matter to praying over a person for healing.) The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God... so responsibility for actions taken (and failures) rest entirely on the person claiming to act for God - which is being done when one person proclaims healing for another.

 

To the preacher proclaims a healing and when it is not done, turns to blame the petitioner for "lack of faith" I say - "You - O preacher - are at fault. You have claimed authority to do what clearly has not been done. Where was your authority? There is no blame here on the petitioner."

 

[cougan]

There are three workings of salvation.  The salvation of the spirit gained by an act of faith.  The salvation of the soul, worked out with much fear and trembling through repentence.  And the salvation of the body, at the last resurrection.  The only requirement for heaven is the salvation of the spirit because Christ covers the soul with grace.  But the salvation of the soul is required for the experience of having an intimate relationship with God.  The salvation of the body is needed for physical relationship with God.  (I'll be very glad when that happens.)  Water baptism is the first act of obedience for the salvation of the soul.  In it also you come into agreement with Christ and His crusifiction, that your flesh is dead to sin and is no longer the ruler in your life, but rather the resurrection life of Christ is the ruler.  In water baptism, you therefore gain an annointing from God to resist the temptations of the enemy since you have come into agreement with God in this area of your life.  Remember that this is a concept not a doctrine, so some of the words may not be the right ones but they should convey the correct idea.

Therefore when I say that the salvation of the soul must be worked out in fear and trembling, I'm refering to the fear of God.  That unless the spirit leads all aspect of repentence of sin then the work is in vain.  Within this personal relationship I keep refering to God desires to disciple His children.  To lead them into all truth.  To show the areas of darkness that the christian may walk in victory.  Better put is that the salvation of the soul is only gained by submission to the Father, in love and a desire to see His will fulfilled and to remain in the fellowship gained by the salvation of the spirit.  As I said earlier, that baptism of water gives one an annointing to resist the enemy.  This statement should have served as a clue that I was saying there was a need for canstant guidence from the Holy Spirit, since all annointing operate out of the power and presence of God.  There is no annointing with out the presence of God.  And everything done from our own power has an anti-annointing, since God resist the proud.

Ok Snup I finally reread these 2 post and you were wanting a response so here you go my friend. Well I must say this is some interesting concept you have come up with here. But I noticed right off that you did'nt give 1 single scripture to back it up. You are opening up a whole new can of worms trying to assign different steps of salvation to mans spirit, soul and body. Now I can say that I dont clearly understand exactly what you are trying to say as your post is pretty vague. Correct me if I am wrong but it sound like you are saying that if I belive that Jesus is the son of God then my spirit is saved and will get to go to heaven. My soul gets to go to heaven no matter what because of the free gift of grace. However if  I want my physical body to go to heaven then I must be baptized. Oh but wait a min you also say that if I repent that my soul is saved. So if save my spirit it goes to heaven If I save my soul then I get to have an intimant relationship with God. But if I do not save my body then I will never have a physical relationship with God.  Or how about if I dont save my spirit by faith nor my soul by repentence but I am water baptised then I will only have a physical relationship God but not an intimant one. Perhaps I'm a little slow Snup but this makes no sense whatsoever. There isnt any verses that I know of that support such an idea. Mans soul, spirit and body go together. You can have parts of man going one place and the other parts going somewhere else. Nor can you show any real distinctions between a mans spirit and soul. Depending on the context some times spirit means life and is also refered to as the soul. The soul is sometimes refered to as a life or the whole person or the inward man. The bible tells that God can seperate the soul and spirit like bone and marrow. It however does not say that he will but that he can. It is obivious they are a part of one another and where one goes the other follows. At death the soul/spirit seperates from the body and at the second comming the body will be reunited with the soul/spirit and transfored into that glorious body like Christs. Either your whole body/spirt/soul will go to heaven or to hell. Notice  1thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you
completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be
preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. There are not different phases of salavation there is only one salvation plan and that is that the only way to the father is throgh Jesus.

Now I dont have you quote here but you made the comment on Joels prophecy not saying that you had to be baptised. Well this can be easily answered as this prophecy was stated there in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

Here Peter quotes Joels prophecy does he not. But what is involved in calling on the name of the Lord. Well just take a look at few verses latter when the people ask what they must do to be saved.

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

They just heard him say call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved but they ask what shall we do? Then Peter tells them repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. So you can clearly see that calling on the name of the Lord would at least involve repenting and baptism.
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

In this verse you see that these people that had repented and were baptised were being added to the church by God. You can also see that it wasnt until they were baptized that their sins were washed away.

In Acts 22:16 when were Paul sins washed away?

Lets quickly look at things that are found in Christ.

Grace 2Tim 2:1
Every Spirtual Blessing Eph 1:3
We are complete in Christ Col 2:9
We are new creation in Christ 2Cor 5:17
Redemption and forgiveness of sin Eph 1:7
Salvation 2Tim 2:10
Eternal life 1Jn 5:11
No condemnation Rom 8:1
Blessed in death Rev 14:13

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[cougan]

You can search high and you can search low but you will find that is baptism that puts you into Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

So you see it is at the point of baptism that you enter into Christ.


&nbsp;4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Notice that we are to be buried with him. Some think sprinkling is ok but if you ask that person if they think someone is buried at the cemetary by sprinkling dirt on them they would more than likely say no.

&nbsp;5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Notice it basical says if we have been baptised&nbsp; certainly we shall be in the likeness of his resurrection.

&nbsp;6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
&nbsp;7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
These 2 verses tells us that it is not until we are baptised that we are cruicifed with him and that are sins are wiped away. We have not been freed from our sins until we are baptised

&nbsp;8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Again notice the conditional statement here. If we have been baptised into&nbsp; Christ then we believe that we shall also live with him.

When we are baptized we are representing Christ death ,burial ,and resurrection.&nbsp; We are symbolic dieing with Christ crucifying our old self with Christ and being raised a new creature freed from sin.

Some people like to claim that baptism is a work of man and therefore can not be part of salvation. Lets take a look at



Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.



Here we see 2 things we see our faith working with our baptism and we see that baptism is not a work of man but a work of god.



13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,



Here we see again that through our faith in the operation of God that when we are baptized we know that we are being joined together with Christ and that our sins are being removed.



Now how much clearer can it be?



How about using inductive reasoning. I posted earlier and gave verses that say the grace saves the word saves, faith saves, repentence saves. confessing Christ saves and Baptism saves. What is you logic it include all of these things that the bible says saves you but you want to leave out baptism which the bible clearly says saves you? If I asked you what makes a clock work you would say all the parts working together. You wouldnt say everything but the batteries. There isnt any logical reason to exclude baptism as one of those parts that save you.



Now one last point.

The following verse says: Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Then we find out that this one body is christ which is the church.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
We also find out that Jesus is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
We also learn that there is only one baptism and that is how we are added to the church which is the one body.
1cort 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
So finally the question. Based off what I just presented can you say with out a doubt that you can be added to the one body which is the church by faith alone without baptism?

 

[cougan]

I forgot to point out a verse in James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be
forgiven.

I want you to notice carefully that it is not the person that is sick faith that makes him well it is the faith and the prayer of the elder that will save the sick.

 

[SnuP]

Cougan I complete concure with yours and TC's&nbsp;assestment on the responcibility of faith.

AS&nbsp; to your reply, on salvation, you gave me a lot to deal with, so give me some time.&nbsp;

Thanks, I'm probably going to open another tread to deal with it specifically.&nbsp; In such case, I will post a link on this tread.

 

[SnuP]

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You can also see that it wasnt until they were baptized that their sins were washed away.

In my original post I said that baptism gives you an annointing to resist sin.&nbsp; That is also to overcome sin, or cause it to go into remission.&nbsp; The scripture does not say that the baptism itself washes away sin.&nbsp; It says that its purpose is for the remission of sin.&nbsp; So this scripture does&nbsp;agree with my theory.

 

[cougan]

It is by your obedience of faith in the working of God that at the point of baptism you know that you are being united with christ in his death that your sins are being removed and that you are being added to the church which is christ body. The water is not magically its all about your obedience of faith. Think about Namen if he had only dipped himself 6 times he would of never been cleansed of his lepersey. But he had obedience of faith and dipped that 7th time and then when he came up he was cleansend of his lepersey. The water wasnt magical there either it was his obedience of faith.

 

[SnuP]

Cougan, I could not agree more.&nbsp; It is this obedience that opens the door for the annointing that I was refering to.

 

[e4God]

Cougan:

My dear Brother in the Lord. I hope and pray the Holy Spirit will fall on you this moment to soften your heart and allow you to be transformed by these words. Yeah, even healed so that the scales may fall away. For your soul is&nbsp;being prepared to have a deeper, higher meeting with the Living Christ and the true nature and power of God.

Please know that I was not making any accusation about pharisaical attitude. Please forgive me if it sounded that way.&nbsp; I was trying to lovingly remind all reading about the easiness with which our attitude in prayer might slip into something less spiritual when we start 'bargaining' with God.&nbsp;&nbsp; For it is written, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God".&nbsp; I have often fallen into this and so make no accusation, only a confession that others may avoid this stumbling block.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

But I will now (in love) confront error in scripture interpretation and point out that you are camping out VERY HARD on verses taken out of context instead of considering the whole of scripture in its teachings about healing.

You accurately quote the Bible as follows:

Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.

But then you go on to explain that Jesus is wrong and McGarvey is right in interpreting this passage.

"Her faith had brought her to Jesus .... Her faith was not the source of her healing, but it had brought her into touch with Jesus who had the power to heal."&lt;6&gt; McGarvey further observed the following on Jesus' remark about her faith:

"The way in which her faith had made her whole is very apparent, and it illustrates the manner in which faith saves us from sin. It caused her to force her way through the crowd until she could touch the garment of Him from whom the deliverance was to come. Had she stopped short of this, her faith would not have made her whole.

Since when did McGarvey's words carry the same weight as Jesus' words? I will trust Jesus' account and telling.

Jesus did say that he could not work miracles in the absence of faith 'in the area'. He did not say the one being healed had to have the faith. But he told a centurion that the centurion's faith had made the centurion's son well, and he told the father of the boy who kept throwing himself in the fire that he could not heal since there was not enough faith in the area. The father responded "I believe, help my unbelief" (PRAISE GOD FOR THIS VERSE - FOR TEACHING THAT THIS MEAGER AMOUNT OF FAITH IS ALL WE NEED TO RELEASE GOD's POWER). At this, Jesus healed the boy.

I must continue (in love)..

You say miracles ceased. But many missionaries to the darkest regions of the world continue to tell first hand stories of miracles. Many doctors will testify to the miracles they have seen in praying familes. Just because you have not seen something PERSONALLY is not a good reason to rule it out. If following this dogma, you would have to reject Christ, as Thomas did, until he touched the hands and feet of the Risen Lord.

There is a common pattern to miracles in the modern world. They tend to occur at the start of a ministry rather than all the time. They tend to occur not so much for the benefit of the healed one but as sign gifts that a newly arrived teacher of the Gospel carries the presence of God. In a particular geography or community they tend to die off after a while, in favor of sound teaching and calls to obedience towards the Word. Further occurences are best left to individual situations. As it is written, "You had the prophets... and their blood cries out". Even the pharisees KNEW of Christ's miracles, but challenged him to do 'one more' in order to avoid the Cross.

Every would be believer is not entitled to a personal miracle. God does not perform as a puppet for us. This is not how it works...

Now, (continuing in LOVE) dear brother...

Baptism is a WORK. It is written that we are saved by FAITH NOT WORKS. We are commanded to Baptism as a TESTIMONY. Sacraments are not impartational, as much as testimonial. It is important, but not NECESSARY. The verses you quoted are part of the teaching on salvation, but there are MANY MORE that do not mention baptism.

It is written, "If you will confess the name of the Lord Jesus Christ with your mouth, and believe in your heart, you will be saved"

We must take the whole of scripture and not pick and choose verses to support dogmatic positions.

"Love Covers All". "Love accepts all"

Love that demands works is not unconditional love. God so loved the world that he sent Christ to die for our sins. By Faith are we saved not works. We are sealed with Him until the end.

The need to UNDERSTAND&nbsp;(see with our own eyes or mind) can be like scales placed over our eyes, placed by the Serpent.&nbsp; Our minds can be darkened by a personal need to wrestle something to the Nth degree.&nbsp; Or to question, DID GOD REALLY SAY THAT.&nbsp;&nbsp;Understanding comes by the Holy Spirit, and not of our own effort.&nbsp;&nbsp; The things of God are foolishness to those who do not believe, but are a sweet fragrance to those who do.

So, Let Us All Pray... I believe, Help My Unbelief.... and then let us pray Heal Me, Oh Lord, and forgive me all my sin...

In the absence of understanding, let us allow the Mystery to be the Miracle!&nbsp; And let nothing come&nbsp;between&nbsp;the darkness of our mind and the Glory of God.&nbsp; For we see only darkly&nbsp;(GOD)&nbsp;at this time.&nbsp; But when it is time, we will see completely.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Shelah....

 

[e4God]

BTW, Cougan: I read more of this thread than you might think

Did you know that the verse about seeing through a glass darkly is a bad translation? The verse really says something like, "At this time, when we try to see God or the Kingdom, we only see what we see in a sooty glass.

This refers to the way a MIRROR is made. Glass that is sooty from a lantern flame makes a natural mirror! This is where the inventor of the mirror first got the idea for a mirror.

The meaning is that when we try to see God, we see a reflection of our selves, or a reflection of our spiritual condition.

Eg: Angry people see an angry God. Depressed people see a powerless God. Faithful, optimistic people see a faithful, optimistic God.

Psychologists call this PROJECTION.

ALL good bible teachers understand this phenomenon, though not all know the real meaning behind the verse I just explained.

 

[e4God]

Finally:

The gifts have most clearly not ceased. To say they have is to deny the valid experience and reality of missionaries, teachers, healers, and the Body of Christ, the Church Universal, spread all over the world.

 

[Thunderchild]

Cougan, you have given me 50% of what I was looking for as a lead to proceeding. Assuming of course, that you do want

Baptism is a WORK. It is written that we are saved by FAITH NOT WORKS. We are commanded to Baptism as a TESTIMONY. Sacraments are not impartational, as much as testimonial. It is important, but not NECESSARY. The verses you quoted are part of the teaching on salvation, but there are MANY MORE that do not mention baptism.

It is written, "If you will confess the name of the Lord Jesus Christ with your mouth, and believe in your heart, you will be saved"

We must take the whole of scripture and not pick and choose verses to support dogmatic positions.

For "more" read "other," e4god - none of which claim that baptism is un-necessary nor do any of them claim that they (and no others) constitute the sum of what is necessary to salvation.

Unfortunately, it is not Cougan who is picking and choosing verses regarding this matter. You have said it yourself, the verses regarding baptism are part of the teachings about salvation. Nor do I recall any passage that declares baptism to be nothing more than a testimony - I do recall that it is the cry for a clean conscience to God.
(or should that be) the response of a clean conscience toward God.

Surprisingly, Cougan is accurate in many of his doctrines regarding the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (except that of considering the gifts to have passed) and too, his concept of baptism is well developed. In other areas, yes, his doctrine is unsound, but in these he is spot on. In fact, his list of factors involved in baptism is so good, that I will be thieving it as a basis for extended Bible Study course on baptism. That list saves me a lot of leg work.

As to "faith and not works" - if you check carefully, you will find that most of those "faith and not works" passages have three more words in the phrase - "faith and not works of the law." Moreover - What good is it if a man say he has faith and has not works - Can faith save him? He then goes on to provide evidence that the answer is clearly "no."

 

[Andrew]

quote: "The verses you quoted are part of the teaching on salvation, but there are MANY MORE that do not mention baptism. "

Yes agreed. We see that even in types and shadows.
eg What miracle saved the children of Israel out of Egypt/Pharoah (type of Satan)? It was death of the firstborn and the Lamb's blood alone -- death and blood of an innocent Lamb for life. It was this that broke Satan's hold on God's people. It was this that saved the children of Israel out of Eygpt.

And when did they cross the Red Sea (a type of water baptism)? After they were saved out of Egypt. The going through the Red Sea did not get them out of Egypt simply becos it came after they were released from Pharoah's grip and the Red Sea is not in Eqypt.

Now we cannot say that water/Red sea adds to salvation for we will be mixing the blood of Christ with water. In heaven one day, its worthy is the Lamb, not worthy is the Lamb plus my works -- one of which is the fact that I underwent water baptism.

question: If someone confesses Jesus as Lord and Saviour wholeheartedly, and then dies later, does that mean he'll go to hell becos he didnt have a chance to dip himself in a pool of water? I was saved since i was a early teen and baptised in the Holy Spirit with tongues at abt age 32 but water baptised only about 1 year later. Does that mean that God wld have sent me to hell if I had died b4 I was water baptised?

 

[SnuP]

But you can say, Andrew that passing through the red sea delivered them from the evil that plagued them for most of their lives.&nbsp; Baptism also can have that power when blended with faith.

 

[Andrew]

agreed Snup. Water baptism can help a person who is already saved go further in his Christian walk but it cannot save or make a person more saved. eg: a back slider can make a new commitment to Christ and 'announce this to the world' thru water baptism. that's why many churches tie water baptism to church membership, where the person enters a deeper relationship/commitment to God by being serious about church -- becoming an official member, tithing, attending AGM and voting, ministry work etc.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Andrew
agreed Snup. Water baptism can help a person who is already saved go further in his Christian walk

The help that I was dicribing is a supernatural help.&nbsp; NOT, a deeper commitment (commitment is worthless without love).

 

[Thunderchild]

Was Peter wrong?

The saving of 8 persons through the waters of the flood was an anti-type of the baptism that now saves us - not by washing dirt from the flesh, but by the (response of/ plea for) a good conscience to God.

 

[cougan]

Snup are you saying that a person that has been baptized cannot sin because they have this supernatureal help?

Andrew just because you dont find baptism mentioned in every single verse that says such and such saves you it does not nullify baptism. How many times does the bible have to say something for it to become valid?
You have to look at the whole word of God. I could go to 1Peter 3:21 and say all you have to do is be baptized to be saved. I dont see Faith or repentence metioned there. OR how about John 3:16 I could say that I only need to belive that Jesus is God son and I will be saved. I dont have to repent or confess Jesus. I could go on but surely you can understand how you have to go by the whole and not just by the verses you want to stand on.

Andrew surely you would agree that you must have your sins removed before you are saved, and surely you would agree that we must die with Christ for this to happen. Andrew just show me 1 verse that shows that faith by itself puts you into Christ death. I have showed clearly how baptism puts you into Christ death. Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3. I have showed several verses that show that it is at the point of baptism that your sins are removed. Acts 2:38, Rom 6:6, Acts 22:16, col 2:13. Now please consider the following verses

Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any
longer in it?

Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic
principles of the world, why, as though living in the world,
do you subject yourselves to regulations --

col 3: 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the
earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will
appear with Him in glory.

2Tim 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We
shall also live with Him.

As you can see from these verses it is important that we die with Jesus and the bible plainly tells us that it is at the point of baptism through our faith in the working of God that we are dieing with Christ being united together with him and having our sins removed and being raised up a new creature being added to the body of Christ by God.

I belive that you must have the right mind set when you are being baptised. If you were baptized just so you could place membership at your church and be allowed to do things like teach or preach then I do not think that you baptism was valid. People that do this are basical telling people they can get to heaven by faith but if you want to be a member of this church you have to be baptized. How crazy is that it easier to get into heaven than it is to get into that church. When you are baptized you cannot join the church because it is God who adds you to christ body. If you believe that you are saved before having your sins washed then I would say that your baptism was invalid.

Why do people put off their baptisms? This certainly is not a bibical principle. You go back and look at the conversion to Christ and you will see time after time that baptism was done immeditaly. Why do you think it was so urgent? The answer is simple, because they new the importance of it and that it was the point of being saved. Just think about the enuch in act 8 . When he heard the word of God from Philip he wanted to know if there was anything hindering him from being baptized. He had spoted a pool of water out there on that road and was ready. You didnt see him wait until he got to town where he might be dipped in some clean water or set a date a couple of weeks later so his family could see it. No he went down into this water on the side of the road and was baptized imeadiatlly. Again take a look at the story of Cornilus when we Gentiles finally got to find out that we to could have our sins washed away. Snup will disagree with me but these people were not saved yet in fact Peter had just started talking to them when the HS was poured out on them. Then Peter remembered back to the only other time this happend which was at Pentacost. Then he relized that the Gentiles could be saved also. So what does Peter do he ask who can forbid water that these should not be baptized. What was the big hurry and why was baptism top on the list here. Again it very clear that the gentiles could also be baptized into christ for remisson of sin.

So to answser you question Andrew Yes I belive you would of been lost without being baptized. Now its up to God to make that decision but we are going to be judged by his word. John 12:48. I dont like to think of anyone being lost but I can not change what the word of God says. I have heard the question well what if the person had to cross the road to get baptised and they get hit by a car and die would they be saved. Well I would hope that they were and that is for God to judge. There a lot what if stories you could come up with but how often does that happen? But the main question should be what do these rare instances have to do with you. Were you killed going across the street to be baptized? Or did you just decide to put it off and save it for a special day. I would hope that you will consider what I have presented. I really hope that I am wrong on this topic, but I cant see any error in this clear concept that is spelled out in the word of God.