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Ceremonial Law like circumcision -- vs moral law of TEN Comm with Sabbath for ALL

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by BobRyan, Jun 23, 2021.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Well none of that is true Bob, I have already shared many posts to you in past discussions going through all the context of 1 John 3:19-23 and also John 15:9-14 showing from the scriptures that love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Sorry Bob but I do not believe according to the scriptures that your teachings of lawlessness (without law) that God's 10 commandments are now abolished in the new covenant is not biblical as everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living (scripture support here and here linked) and the very standard of what is right when obeyed and sin when disobeyed (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to the scriptures in the new covenant if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. Of course we all know that this also includes God's 4th commandment because it is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to the scriptures. Therefore we will have to agree to disagree Bob because according to the scriptures I do not believe your teachings of lawlessness is biblical. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That would be between you and God.

    Take Care
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    2Co 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
    2Co 3:2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
    2Co 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
    2Co 3:4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
    2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
    2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
    2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
    2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
    2Co 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.

    Notice the contrast between the ten commandments written on stone which "was" glorious, as compared to the New Covenant.

    What was written on the tablets of stone?

    In this passage Paul destroys your attempts to divide the Law into parts and claim the change in the Law had nothing to do with the ten commandments.

    We find the same concept in Galatians 4:24-31 where Paul specifically refers to the Sinai Covenant as one of "bondage".

    Why have you failed to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage"?

    It it because of the bondwoman Ellen G. White?

    .
     
  3. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
    Paul here is telling us that the ten commandments were transitory meaning temporary. KJV goes further to tell us the ten were done away.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Well that interpretation has no truth in it whatsoever Bob. I think you mean verse 7 don't you? According to the scriptures what was done away Bob was old covenant that transitioned to the new covenant and the ministration of death through breaking the law as well as all the laws for remission of sins; this of course includes the death penalty for sin that is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments through forgiveness by faith in Christ.

    According to the scriptures the ministration of death is the penalty for sin. The wages of sin is death according to Paul but the gift of God is eternal life through JESUS Christ *Romans 6:23. It is the ministration of condemnation that is done away in Christ because he paid the price for our sins and those who believe have been made free to walk in God’s Spirit (Galatians 5:16).

    Romans 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.[2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. This is God's new covenant promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34; repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

    Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 that God’s law has been abolished is not biblical but allow me to show why through the scriptures. It is the ministration of condemnation and sins penalty that has been abolished in those who believe and follow God’s Word not God's 10 commandments that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

    An interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 of God’s 10 Commandments being abolished has Paul contradicting himself in Romans 3:31. Here lets show how by comparing 2 Corinthians 3:7 with Romans 3:31 where Paul state God’s law is not to be abolished but established through faith…

    Firstly though notice that in both scriptures used in 2 Corinthians 3:7 and Romans 3:31 that the same Greek word is used for abolished or done away which have the same meaning. Now you claim that it is Gods' law that is done away. That interpretation of the scriptures has Paul contradicting Paul when he says that faith does not do away or abolish Gods' law. It is the covenants and ministration of death that is done away through faith in Christ Bob not Gods' 10 commandments. Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 contradict Paul's writings in Romans 3:31

    Look at the scriptures...

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

    ROMANS 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον (G2476) ἱστῶμεν

    Meaning...

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2673 Καταργουμένην; katargeō From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

    Note: above and below in the parallel section in both 2 Corinthians 3:7 and Romans 3:31 that the same Greek word is used (G2673) καταργοῦμενην yet in Romans 3:31 the subject matter is specifically God's law. So an interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3:7 is talking about God's law being abolished has Paul now in contradiction with Paul which is simply unbiblical.

    PARALLEL OF ROMANS 3:31

    ROMANS 3:31 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Are we (G2673) eliminating the Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are (G2476) establishing The Written Law.

    ROMANS 3:31 (International Standard Version) Do we, then, (G2673) abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we (G2476) uphold the Law.

    ROMANS 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make (G2673) void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we (G2476) establish the law.

    Note the Greek word used here for void/eliminating/abolish is G2673 in the Greek

    ROMANS 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον (G2476) ἱστῶμεν

    Note the same Greek word is used for ROMANS 3:31 is also used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7; Also note the same Greek words is used in 2 Corinthians 3:11 (G2673) καταργοῦμενην

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (International Standard Version) Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (G2673) because the glory was fading away from it,

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory, so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face (G2673) that which has been canceled

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be (G2673) done away

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

    ……………

    Note the same word (G2673) καταργουμένην is used in Romans 3:31 n context to God's law for abolish is used in 2 Corinthians 3:7; 11 as shown above and is also translated as abolished in some English translations. Let’s look at the Greek word meaning that both scriptures use…

    CONCLUSION: So as can be shown above an interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 that God’s 10 commandments are abolished has PAUL contradicting himself in Romans 3:31. The correct context of 2 Corinthians 3:7 is the ministration of condemnation is abolished by the ministration of the Spirit as shown in 2 Corinthians 3:3-13. Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 has Paul contradicting himself when he says In Romans 3:31 Do we then make (G2673) abolish the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we (G2476) establish the law.

    Take Care Bob.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    See post above to Bob which shows why your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3 has Paul in contradiction with Paul post # 264 linked.

    Let's also look at the detail here as well though for those who might be interested.

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-14
    [1], Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, letters of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
    [2], you are our letter written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    [3], For as much as you are manifestly declared to be the letter of Christ ministered by us, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART.

    Note: in [v3] that Paul is stating that the Corinthians here are letters of Christ ministered by Paul and his companions “written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (reference to the 10 commandments) but IN the fleshly tables of the HEART! Paul's reference here is to Gods new covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12 [10], FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT that i will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. So God's law is not being abolished here it is being established under the new covenant in the heart of those who have been born again in the Spirit to walk in Gods' law.
    So the context here is the ministration (Paul and his companions being the ministers) of the new covenant Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ of which the Corinthians are examples who have been given a new heart to love God and walk in his commandments which is the new covenant promise. Let's continue..

    [4], And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
    [5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God.
    [6], WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW COVENANT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

    Note: in [6] the context are repeated from [v3] that is that Paul and his companions were the MINISTERS of the NEW COVENANT. “NOT OF THE LETTER OF THE LAW BUT OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW; FOR THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE”. No where here does [v6] teach that God’s law is abolished. It simply states that “the letter killeth” that is the letter of the law gives us a knowledge of what sin is which agrees with new covenant scripture also written by Paul in *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and John in 1 John 3:4 because when God’s 10 commandments are broken we stand guilty before God of sin and the penalty of sin is death according to the scriptures *Romans 6:21-23; Romans 8:13, So God's law is not able to save us from sin's penalty and change our hearts to love and follow God. In [v6] continued “FOR THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE” reference to the new covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:15-17. The Jews had the letter of the law but did not have the Spirit of the law. JESUS said to the Jews that “unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” *Matthew 5:20; Matthew 23:13. The Scribes and Pharisees had the letter of the law but not the Spirit of the law. They had the outward appearance as to what the law required but not the change of heart that the new covenant promised *Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:15-17. “THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE”. They had the letter or outward forms and ceremonies but were not born again *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9 by the Spirit to love through a change of heart by the Spirit that brings life. On the OUTSIDE the Scribes and Pharisees appeared righteous to men but inwardly they were breaking God’s law and were full of dead mans bones *Matthew 23:25:28. Let's continue..

    [7], BUT IF THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES, WAS GLORIOUS, SO THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY BEHOLD THE FACE OF MOSES FOR THE GLORY OF HIS COUNTENANCE; WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY:

    Note: It is the condemnation and death (sin) that is to be done away with and the letter through the Spirit not God’s law as God’s law is not sin but is Holy, Just and Good * Romans 7:7; Romans 7:11-12 and gives us a knowledge of what sin is in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25

    [8], HOW SHALL NOT THE MINISTRATION OF THE SPIRIT BE RATHER GLORIOUS?
    [9], FOR IF THE MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION BE GLORY, MUCH MORE DOES THE MINISTRATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEED IN GLORY.

    Note: The 10 commandments (the letter) written on stone is the “MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION” that is it condemns sin or the breaking of God’s 10 commandments. It brings a knowledge is sin and condemnation brings the guilt of sin which is death. Through the Spirit of JESUS our sins are forgiven as we have faith in God’s Word *John 3:16-19; 1 John 1:9 and His Spirit through faith in the Word of God *John 6:63 changes our heart *Hebrews 8:10-12 to love and obedience that leads to righteousness *Romans 13:8-10; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:14:16; Romans 1:5; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

    [10], FOR EVEN THAT WHICH WAS MADE GLORIOUS HAD NO GLORY IN THIS RESPECT, BY REASON OF THE GLORY THAT EXCELS.
    [11], FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINS IS GLORIOUS.

    Note: The purpose of God’s law was only to give us a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20 and to lead us to JESUS *Galatians 3:22-25. It could never change us and free us from the power and condemnation of sin. The old covenant Sanctuary laws for remission of sins (burnt offerings and animal sacrifices and blood offerings) pointed to JESUS and God’s plan of salvation in the new covenant and God’s promise of salvation from sin’s power *Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:15-17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 3:6-9.

    [12], Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
    [13], AND NOT AS MOSES, WHICH PUT A VEIL OVER HIS FACE, THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY LOOK TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS ABOLISHED:

    Note: the veil to be abolished is the “letter of condemnation and sin” which leads to the Spirit of life which is received by faith in God’s Word that leads us to the Spirit of Christ that works in us to love *Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 3:22-25; Galatians 5:16; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 14:12.

    ...............

    So to have an interpretation of the scriptures that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul in contradiction with Paul as shown from the scriptures in post # 264 linked and is simply a false teaching of lawlessness (without law) that is not biblical once you start looking at the scriptures by adding in context and detail to the rest of the bible.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
  6. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    The Covenant that changed was the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, with it's sacrificial "works of the LAW" for forgiveness. We are no longer under the "Order of Aaron", but back under the "Order of Melchizedek". The religious philosophy that God's Commandments that define Sin, has changed or become obsolete, is a false doctrine of religious men. The Religions of this world teach it , but neither God, Nor His Son, nor any of the Faithful Servants of God in the Bible teaches this.

    Jesus warned about religious men, who come in HIS Name, preaching that Jesus is truly the Christ, (Modern definition of Mainstream Christianity) that WILL come and Deceive many. The popular religious Doctrine that God's Law became obsolete is one such deception.

    Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    In the Promise God made of His New Covenant, He defined His New Covenant in detail. In HIS New Covenant, there was no mention of His Definition of Sin passing away. Only the manner in which God's Definition of Sin is Administered, and the Manner in which transgressions of God's Commandments are forgiven.

    If I were you I would place my Trust in the Covenant God defined, not the one being peddled by the religions of this world Jesus warned us about.
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
    Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
    Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
    Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
    Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
    Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
    Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
    Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
    Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
    Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
    Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
    Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
    Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
    Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
    Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
    Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
    Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
    Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
    Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
    Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
    Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


    2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    2Co 3:7 But if
    the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
    2Co 3:8
    how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
    2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
    2Co 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.




    Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
    Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
    Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


    God defined "His commandments" below, through the Apostle John.

    1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
    1Jn 3:23
    And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  8. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Posting this chapter doesn't make void the Scriptures I posted, nor does it void the rest of the Bible, nor does it make void God's Own Definition of His Own New Covenant.

    I know you will not answer, because I've asked you before, but I will ask again anyway.

    Why are these people alive this day? They broke God's Covenant HE made with them with the Golden Calf.

    Ex. 32:
    9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

    10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.


    What happened that caused God to change HIS mind?

    Why were there still Israelite's alive in Duet. 5?

    I will let the God of the Bible tell you, and then when you reject it, you are rejecting Him again, and not me.

    Ex. 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

    Why did Moses have to speak with God about Atonement? Wasn't there a LAW regarding atonement given "on the day" God led them out of Egypt? You and the religions of this world, preach there was only one Covenant, already given by this time. How is it Moses didn't already have a LAW regarding atonement?

    The answer is right before your own eyes. This LAW was not yet "ADDED", just like Jeremiah said.

    Before this, there was no LAW "ADDED" because of Transgressions. Just like Jeremiah, who you completely ignored and rejected from your entire religion, told you in my post you blew off as insignificant. Somehow believing that by posting some random verse somewhere, you could destroy the Word's of Jeremiah inspired by the Christ Himself, because HE exposes a religious philosophy you are promoting as not from God, but from man.

    Those alive in Duet 5, were under a different Covenant. They had the LAWS that were in the Covenant God gave them "in the day" HE led them out of Egypt, but this time, GOD "ADDED" Sacrificial "Works" for forgiveness, "Till the SEED Should Come". A Law Abraham didn't have.

    This is why I posted Jeremiah's Words in order for you to see that you have been deceived by the religions of this world. That you might adopt the mind of Christ who understood that God Separated the Temporary Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" from His Laws, Statutes, Commandments and Judgments.

    It's right in front of you, if you would only believe.[/QUOTE]
     
  9. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Gal 5:
    13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

    16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    2Cor 3:8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

    Those verses tell us The Spirit is to be our guide not the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,

    Rom 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

    There were 613 commands in the "law". Is Paul speaking out of both sides of his mouth? Do we void 2 Cor3 which tells us we are not under the guidance of the ten commandments because Paul also wrote Rom 3:31? Is Paul telling us in verse 31 that we are subject to keeping the law of Moses. Apparently LGW thinks we are.

    LGW's interpretation of 2 Cor 3:7-11 is:
    Well that interpretation has no truth in it whatsoever Bob. I think you mean verse 7 don't you? According to the scriptures what was done away Bob was old covenant that transitioned to the new covenant and the ministration of death through breaking the law as well as all the laws for remission of sins; this of course includes the death penalty for sin that is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments through forgiveness by faith in Christ.

    Of course, LGW's interpretation is completely incorrect. The real meaning of verses void every post he has ever written on the subject of having to keep a day.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    This is true - and yet "it is still sin" even for Christians to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 because even in the N.T. - "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 which is a law that includes "the TEN" having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    True and the Spirit is the AUTHOR of scripture - that is HIS work not man's.

    "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and is to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16.

    God is in favor of HIS Word - not at war with it.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    I have noticed that you don't use Rom 3:31, Eph 6:2, 1 Cor 7:19, Rom 2:13, Rev 14:12 in your posts but LGW likes to quote those texts.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    And you ignore Deuteronomy 5:3, and Galatians 3:16-19, and Galatians 4:24-31, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, which prove the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant now made "obsolete" by the New Covenant.


    Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Anyone who quotes from 1 John 3:4, but ignores the end of the chapter, is attempting to pull the old "bait-and-switch" routine of the used car salesman.

    1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.


    1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
    1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
    1Jn 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


    .
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Anyone who quotes from 1 John 3:4 but not the rest of the Bible is not by that act "pulling a bait and switch".

    God's commandments include "the ten" having "honor your father and mother which is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2. EVEN though 1 John 3:23 does not include the command "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 or even "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

    Anyone who quotes 1 John 3:23 but not Eph 6:2, Ex 20:7, Deut 6:5 may simply have needed a bit more time or possibly their post was getting a bit too long and they wanted to keep it short.
     
  16. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    Part of the problem is that you take something that the Jews did every Sabbath, i.e. gather in the synagogues, and make it a N.T. continued command simply because the Jews and Greeks were there. One of the many problems with this is that those gathering weren't even Christians yet, so to say that the Christians were gathering on that day has nothing at all to do with the text.

    Act 18:4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. 5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

    It is the non-saved, the lost, the non-Christians ... that were gathering at that time. Paul just went to speak to them there and they rejected the gospel. If we are commanded to gather when the lost, non-Christians gather, show me the passage.

    The problem is the Methodology. Those who love their beliefs, and not truth, gather everything they can "use" to prove their beliefs true, everything they can ":use" to prove all opposing beliefs false, and, since their beliefs are fact, all correct interpretations of all "valid" data must align with their beliefs. The problem is, everyone using this Methodology can only prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false, no matter what their beliefs.

    Want to hold to Atheistic beliefs, this Methodology works. Want to prove Mormon positions true, you can do that, ...

    Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

    The problem is, you have to create meaning that isn't there to hold fast to a belief that isn't taught in the New Testament.

    Act 15:19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

    And again ...

    Act 15:28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

    I get it, all groups, even those that Paul opposed to his face, like Peter want to hold fast to the old beliefs...

    Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

    And again ...

    Act 21:25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

    How does keeping a specific day mean anything to God now? Jesus is the first fruits of the dead ... under the New Covenant. Sabbath is under the Old covenant, as is Tithe which was for the upkeep of the temple. Want to tithe now, then get a health club membership to maintain the temple, as your body is now the temple of the Holy Spirit.

    Understand that while Jesus was on the earth we are still under the O.T. as Jesus hadn't died yet, and wasn't risen from the dead. Read the gospels in that light. Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes, He kept it as God designed it to be kept because He was under the O.T. Law at the time. No one "Christian", who understands their freedoms in Christ is laying these burdens on the Gentile shoulders, nor are they telling Christians they should be obeying them. They didn't add, "And oh yes, You need to keep the Sabbath as well."
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


    Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


    Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


    .



     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    1. I show from Is 66:23 that for all eternity after the cross , in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
    2. I show that in Acts 13 it is "the gentiles" not the Jews - that ask for "more gospel preaching next Sabbath"
    3. I show in Acts 18:4 that it is BOTH gentiles and Jews hearing the gospel in the synagogue and coming back "every Sabbath" for more gospel preaching.
    4. I show that James 2 does not allow us to delete one of the TEN.
    5. I show that in Acts 15 - the fact that all Christians are hearing scripture "every Sabbath" is part of the solution to the problem that the Jerusalem church was facing.
    6. Paul reminds us that the Law of God includes the distinct unit of Law called in scripture "the TEN Commandments" having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    It is not even remotely possible that none of the Jews and gentiles in the synagogue "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 were at all being converted since Acts 18 tells us that is totally not true.

    4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
    5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

    There is no mention of "believed and stopped attending those gospel preaching services on Sabbath - but rather began week-day-1 gospel preaching services which they called the Lord's Day". Yet some readers will creatively "insert" that for us.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord,

    Sabbath was observed by worship service and by refraining from labor. Gal 4:9-10 condemns the observance of even one pagan holy day.

    The NT says "he who will not work - neither let him eat" - 2Thess 3:10 ...

    so there was no allowance at all for keeping every day of the week as Sabbath. That means "observes every day" in Rom 14:5 - is just the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

    It does not work any other way.
     
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