Celtic Christianity

Vanellus

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"The Christianity of the Celts has a marked spirituality of its own. Having no towns, no currency, no large-scale industries, it had little temptation to material and worldly ideals,
It retained to the end a serene inner life which could never be repeated in a rapidly changing world, and it could convey this spirit in its poetry at home and abroad to after ages in its work as in its religious devotions:

A hedge of trees surrounds me
The blackbird's lay sings to me
May the Lord shield me
Well do I write under the greenwood

Upon my lined booklet
The trilling birds chant to me
May the Lord shield me
Well do I write under the greenwood

In a grey mantle from the top of the bushes the cuckoo sings

From The Celts by Nora Chadwick

I wonder what people here know about Celtic Christianity.
Is the above a fair view?
 

Eftsoon

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Thank you for bringing this into the foreground for me. I'm reading about it now. I'm impressed by the eco-awareness and the sense of a pure and unsullied commitment to spirituality. I do however have a number of questions about paganism however since there is a strong druidic connection.

What sparked your interest in this?
 
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Vanellus

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The book by Nora Chadwick I was reading. It's a general history that included a chapter on Celtic Christianity. The art of the period did show some transition from pagan forms though one could argue that these early Christians used those forms to express their Christianity e.g. the Book of Kells
 
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Davy

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"The Christianity of the Celts has a marked spirituality of its own. Having no towns, no currency, no large-scale industries, it had little temptation to material and worldly ideals,
It retained to the end a serene inner life which could never be repeated in a rapidly changing world, and it could convey this spirit in its poetry at home and abroad to after ages in its work as in its religious devotions:

A hedge of trees surrounds me
The blackbird's lay sings to me
May the Lord shield me
Well do I write under the greenwood

Upon my lined booklet
The trilling birds chant to me
May the Lord shield me
Well do I write under the greenwood

In a grey mantle from the top of the bushes the cuckoo sings

From The Celts by Nora Chadwick

I wonder what people here know about Celtic Christianity.
Is the above a fair view?

Might be of interest...

Numerous Ancient Manuscripts Confirming St. Joseph (of the Sanhedrin) Founded the British Hebrew Priesthood at Glastonbury in 36AD – St. Andrew's and St. Joseph's O.C.C.. Home of Watchman News, the Priory of Salem and TCAWW


The Culdee Church history is considered by many as simple legend. I don't consider it as all legend, and the reason mainly is because of Bible prophecy about scattered Israel, along with certain archaeological discoveries and translations of those.

To make a long story short, Bible prophecy stated how God would scatter the ten northern tribe kingdom "house of Israel", while Judah would remain in His grace in the time when northern Israel went captive by the kings of Assyria. This is written in the Book of Hosea about the ten tribes of Israel. The prophecy included the fact that the ten scattered tribes would be removed, not find their way back, and allowed to fall fully into the Baal worship they coveted while forgetting God, and He would hedge up their paths, they would forget His sabbaths and feast days, and He would lead them into the wilderness. God then called them Lo-ami, meaning 'not My people'. But then in the wilderness, He would speak softly to them, and they would no longer call Him 'Bali', but 'Ishi', and He would make a new covenant with them. And then in final the door of hope would be given them (for their final resting place with His gathering of them in final back to the promised lands).

Apostle Paul in Romans 9 quoted that final part in Hosea with God no longer calling lost Israel as Lo-ami, but instead as the living sons of God. But Paul quoted that to Roman Gentiles, when the Book of Hosea was written specifically to, and about the ten northern tribes of Israel, called after the split as the "house of Israel". In other words, Apostle Paul was speaking to Christ's Church there, making a direct connection with the scattered ten tribes of Israel and the Christian Church in Europe.

In Genesis 35:11, God promised to make of Jacbo's seed "a nation, and a company of nations". God gave Jacob the new name Israel, so that means a COMPANY of Israelite nations! This prophecy continued to Joseph's son Ephraim when Jacob transferred this blessing, saying that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". That means a multitude of ISRAELITE nations. How's that?

Where did The Gospel of Jesus Christ take hold after Christ was rejected at Jerusalem? In the nations of Asia Minor and Europe, that's where nations began to put away their pagan idols and convert to Jesus Christ, Great Britain being the first people on a national scale to do this, after the passion of Christ (which even the old Roman Church in their councils had to admit).

Is this British-Israelism? Not really, because the "multitude of nations" prophecy does not allow one to apply this to the nation of Britain only, even though Britain with the Culdee Christian history dates back to the 1st century A.D. with Joseph of Arimathea (according to legend being a tin ore trader in travels by ship to Britain).
 
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The Liturgist

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I do think that the mystery of the ten lost tribes of Israel is a subject that doesn't get the attention it deserves - it seems to be "ah well they were carted off by the Assyrians and so disappear from the Heilgeschichte "

The correct answer is that they survive among the Samaritans. DNA tests confirm the Samaritans are related to the Jews. And there are only nine Northern-only tribes; among the Jews there are many Levites and many Kohanim, descendants of the priests among the Levis. The surviving 800 Samaritans are descended from Levi, Ephraim and Manessah.
 
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The Liturgist

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Might be of interest...

Numerous Ancient Manuscripts Confirming St. Joseph (of the Sanhedrin) Founded the British Hebrew Priesthood at Glastonbury in 36AD – St. Andrew's and St. Joseph's O.C.C.. Home of Watchman News, the Priory of Salem and TCAWW


The Culdee Church history is considered by many as simple legend. I don't consider it as all legend, and the reason mainly is because of Bible prophecy about scattered Israel, along with certain archaeological discoveries and translations of those.

To make a long story short, Bible prophecy stated how God would scatter the ten northern tribe kingdom "house of Israel", while Judah would remain in His grace in the time when northern Israel went captive by the kings of Assyria. This is written in the Book of Hosea about the ten tribes of Israel. The prophecy included the fact that the ten scattered tribes would be removed, not find their way back, and allowed to fall fully into the Baal worship they coveted while forgetting God, and He would hedge up their paths, they would forget His sabbaths and feast days, and He would lead them into the wilderness. God then called them Lo-ami, meaning 'not My people'. But then in the wilderness, He would speak softly to them, and they would no longer call Him 'Bali', but 'Ishi', and He would make a new covenant with them. And then in final the door of hope would be given them (for their final resting place with His gathering of them in final back to the promised lands).

Apostle Paul in Romans 9 quoted that final part in Hosea with God no longer calling lost Israel as Lo-ami, but instead as the living sons of God. But Paul quoted that to Roman Gentiles, when the Book of Hosea was written specifically to, and about the ten northern tribes of Israel, called after the split as the "house of Israel". In other words, Apostle Paul was speaking to Christ's Church there, making a direct connection with the scattered ten tribes of Israel and the Christian Church in Europe.

In Genesis 35:11, God promised to make of Jacbo's seed "a nation, and a company of nations". God gave Jacob the new name Israel, so that means a COMPANY of Israelite nations! This prophecy continued to Joseph's son Ephraim when Jacob transferred this blessing, saying that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". That means a multitude of ISRAELITE nations. How's that?

Where did The Gospel of Jesus Christ take hold after Christ was rejected at Jerusalem? In the nations of Asia Minor and Europe, that's where nations began to put away their pagan idols and convert to Jesus Christ, Great Britain being the first people on a national scale to do this, after the passion of Christ (which even the old Roman Church in their councils had to admit).

Is this British-Israelism? Not really, because the "multitude of nations" prophecy does not allow one to apply this to the nation of Britain only, even though Britain with the Culdee Christian history dates back to the 1st century A.D. with Joseph of Arimathea (according to legend being a tin ore trader in travels by ship to Britain).

British Hebrew Israeltism has been positively disproven with genetic and historical analysis. Its a myth, to be very frank.
 
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The Liturgist

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"The Christianity of the Celts has a marked spirituality of its own. Having no towns, no currency, no large-scale industries, it had little temptation to material and worldly ideals,
It retained to the end a serene inner life which could never be repeated in a rapidly changing world, and it could convey this spirit in its poetry at home and abroad to after ages in its work as in its religious devotions:

A hedge of trees surrounds me
The blackbird's lay sings to me
May the Lord shield me
Well do I write under the greenwood

Upon my lined booklet
The trilling birds chant to me
May the Lord shield me
Well do I write under the greenwood

In a grey mantle from the top of the bushes the cuckoo sings

From The Celts by Nora Chadwick

I wonder what people here know about Celtic Christianity.
Is the above a fair view?

Celtic Christianity originated when Coptic monks travelled to Hibernia in search of a quiet place for monasticism. Irish Christianity was dominated by monasteries; in Ireland they were more important and more a part of everyday secular life than anywhere else in the world.
 
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Davy

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British Hebrew Israeltism has been positively disproven with genetic and historical analysis. Its a myth, to be very frank.

Who is pushing British Israeltism?

Are you denying that none of the ten tribes of the northern kingdom which God scattered could wind up in the West? How silly you would be to deny that.

Maybe you're one of those who believes all the ten tribes that were scattered by the kings of Assyria to Assyria and to the land of the Medes all... returned back to the holy lands. If you believe that, then PROVE IT.
 
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The Liturgist

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Who is pushing British Israeltism?




Are you denying that none of the ten tribes of the northern kingdom which God scattered could wind up in the West? How silly you would be to deny that.

Maybe you're one of those who believes all the ten tribes that were scattered by the kings of Assyria to Assyria and to the land of the Medes all... returned back to the holy lands. If you believe that, then PROVE IT.

I don’t have to; genetic studies have already proven the Samaritans and the Jews and the Beta Israel of Ethiopia, and the Ethiopians in general, are all related. The Kingdom of Assyria, by the way, is Northern Iraq, and the land of the Medes is Persia, neither of which is far from Palestine, and it is far more likely that the Samaritans are returned members of the Northern Tribes than the Northern Tribes having migrated thousands of miles across Europe, crossing the territory of notoriously hostile Frankish, German, Scythian and Slavic tribes, and then the English channel, where they would have had to contend with the Picts and other indigenous Britons, and then the Irish Sea. And there is no genetic evidence in support of British Israelitism or Celtic Israelitism. Indeed even the Khazars of Crimea, who practice Karaite Judaism, have been shown via genetic testing to not be related to the Jews. But the Samaritans are, so that at least accounts for the tribes of Ephraim and Manessah.
 
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Davy

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I don’t have to; genetic studies have already proven the Samaritans and the Jews and the Beta Israel of Ethiopia, and the Ethiopians in general, are all related. The Kingdom of Assyria, by the way, is Northern Iraq, and the land of the Medes is Persia, neither of which is far from Palestine, and it is far more likely that the Samaritans are returned members of the Northern Tribes than the Northern Tribes having migrated thousands of miles across Europe, crossing the territory of notoriously hostile Frankish, German, Scythian and Slavic tribes, and then the English channel, where they would have had to contend with the Picts and other indigenous Britons, and then the Irish Sea. And there is no genetic evidence in support of British Israelitism or Celtic Israelitism. Indeed even the Khazars of Crimea, who practice Karaite Judaism, have been shown via genetic testing to not be related to the Jews. But the Samaritans are, so that at least accounts for the tribes of Ephraim and Manessah.

The Behistun rock in northern Iraq has carvings of what bound tribal chieftains of the ten tribes of Israel looked like. Secular archaeologists try to say those are various unrelated peoples that were captured, which is not true. The characteristic Hebrew cap is what the last chieftain is shown wearing.


BetBehistun.jpg
behistun2.jpg



Some don't consider the Apocrypha actual Scripture, and it's not really. But it was included in the original 1st edition 1611 King James Bible:

2 Esdras 13
40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.

41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,

42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.

43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.

44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.

45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.


From the Jewish Encyclopedia:


ARZARETH:
By: Morris Jastrow, Jr., Kaufmann Kohler

The name of the land beyond the great river, far away from the habitation of man, in which the Ten Tribes of Israel will dwell, observing the laws of Moses, until the time of the restoration, according to IV Esd. xiii. 45. Columbus identified America with this land. (See Kayserling's "Christopher Columbus," translated by Dr. C. Gross, p. 15.)

 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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A Morning Prayer by St Patrick


celtic-cross-sunny-day-iona-abbey-scotland_160321-977.jpg




A Morning Prayer by St Patrick
Lorica by St. Patrick


I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
Through belief in the Threeness,
Through confession of the Oneness
of the Creator of creation.

I arise today
Through the strength of Christ’s birth with His baptism,
Through the strength of His crucifixion with His burial,
Through the strength of His resurrection with His ascension,
Through the strength of His descent for the judgment of doom.

I arise today
Through the strength of the love of cherubim,
In the obedience of angels,
In the service of archangels,
In the hope of resurrection to meet with reward,
In the prayers of patriarchs,
In the predictions of prophets,
In the preaching of apostles,
In the faith of confessors,
In the innocence of holy virgins,
In the deeds of righteous men.

I arise today, through
The strength of heaven,
The light of the sun,
The radiance of the moon,
The splendor of fire,
The speed of lightning,
The swiftness of wind,
The depth of the sea,
The stability of the earth,
The firmness of rock.

I arise today, through
God’s strength to pilot me,
God’s might to uphold me,
God’s wisdom to guide me,
God’s eye to look before me,
God’s ear to hear me,
God’s word to speak for me,
God’s hand to guard me,
God’s shield to protect me,
God’s host to save me
From snares of devils,
From temptation of vices,
From everyone who shall wish me ill,
afar and near.

I summon today
All these powers between me and those evils,
Against every cruel and merciless power
that may oppose my body and soul,
Against incantations of false prophets,
Against black laws of pagandom,
Against false laws of heretics,
Against craft of idolatry,
Against spells of witches and smiths and wizards,
Against every knowledge that corrupts man’s body and soul;
Christ to shield me today
Against poison, against burning,
Against drowning, against wounding,
So that there may come to me an abundance of reward.

Christ with me,
Christ before me,
Christ behind me,
Christ in me,
Christ beneath me,
Christ above me,
Christ on my right,
Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down,
Christ when I sit down,
Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.




Saint Patrick - Wikipedia


abeeebd8ac61e51d746adf5ae30c502f.jpg



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tampasteve

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Going back to the OP.....

I am fairly familiar with Celtic Christianity, I am an Associate Member of the Iona Community. In general it is fair to characterize "Celtic" Christianity are being perhaps more contemplative and perhaps more "internal" than most European Christianity. However, it is probably too far to think that it was a entirely unique expression of the faith. We see similar characteristics in Coptic Christianity, among others.

Some people like to go further and say that it had it's own hierarchy, it was free from Rome. There just is not a lot of historical evidence that it was any more "free" than most of the other local churches at the time. Certain area's of the British Islands were more remote, and thereby more "free", but it was more of a circumstance of local than theology. In fact, Bishops in the islands were not un-often sent from outside of the islands.
 
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Davy

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Going back to the OP.....

I am fairly familiar with Celtic Christianity, I am an Associate Member of the Iona Community. In general it is fair to characterize "Celtic" Christianity are being perhaps more contemplative and perhaps more "internal" than most European Christianity. However, it is probably too far to think that it was a entirely unique expression of the faith. We see similar characteristics in Coptic Christianity, among others.

Some people like to go further and say that it had it's own hierarchy, it was free from Rome. There just is not a lot of historical evidence that it was any more "free" than most of the other local churches at the time. Certain area's of the British Islands were more remote, and thereby more "free", but it was more of a circumstance of local than theology. In fact, Bishops in the islands were not un-often sent from outside of the islands.

The 1611 KJV translators, in their Letter To King James, remarked about the attempts to control the Church of England by Rome, which they refused to recognize a 'bishop of bishops' (i.e., pope) other than just another brother in Christ. So there was, and has been, a separation between the Church in Britain, and in Rome. Not only that, but the Protestant rebellion brought a further separation from Roman attempts at control.

But the old Culdee Church represents an earlier time when Rome was still primarily pagan. The king of the Bretons and family were captive at Rome, which Roman historians recorded.
 
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tampasteve

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The 1611 KJV translators, in their Letter To King James, remarked about the attempts to control the Church of England by Rome, which they refused to recognize a 'bishop of bishops' (i.e., pope) other than just another brother in Christ. So there was, and has been, a separation between the Church in Britain, and in Rome. Not only that, but the Protestant rebellion brought a further separation from Roman attempts at control.

But the old Culdee Church represents an earlier time when Rome was still primarily pagan. The king of the Bretons and family were captive at Rome, which Roman historians recorded.
Anything written as late as the 1600s should be used with caution when used to support whether the ancient Celtic/British church had any oversight or connection to Rome or how independent it may have been; they had a reason to slant their statements at the time and the texts need to be read in that light.

The Culdees were perhaps ignorant of the outside churches, but that does not mean that they rejected the rest of the Church. Contrarily, they show a similar individual expression as we see in many more remote Christian communities, not to mention the variety of expressions found in mainland Europe up until Trent. That said, non-Britons as well as Britons had been positioned as Bishops since about the beginning of the Church in the islands, implying a rich exchange as well as at least partial recognition of the value of Rome having some influence.

I certainly agree that the Pope had a significantly smaller role in the Early Church than the RCC wants to believe, but I also believe the hierarchy and beliefs in the British islands were not as independent as some supporters of a "Celtic Church" like to believe.
 
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Davy

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Anything written as late as the 1600s should be used with caution when used to support whether the ancient Celtic/British church had any oversight or connection to Rome or how independent it may have been; they had a reason to slant their statements at the time and the texts need to be read in that light.

The Culdees were perhaps ignorant of the outside churches, but that does not mean that they rejected the rest of the Church. Contrarily, they show a similar individual expression as we see in many more remote Christian communities, not to mention the variety of expressions found in mainland Europe up until Trent. That said, non-Britons as well as Britons had been positioned as Bishops since about the beginning of the Church in the islands, implying a rich exchange as well as at least partial recognition of the value of Rome having some influence.

I certainly agree that the Pope had a significantly smaller role in the Early Church than the RCC wants to believe, but I also believe the hierarchy and beliefs in the British islands were not as independent as some supporters of a "Celtic Church" like to believe.

I have a copy of William Reeves book 'The Culdees of the British Isles as They Appear in History With an Appendix of Evidences', and it shows the early British Church existing when Rome was still pagan. So the Culdees were definitely not established by a pope in Rome.
 
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I have a copy of William Reeves book 'The Culdees of the British Isles as They Appear in History With an Appendix of Evidences', and it shows the early British Church existing when Rome was still pagan.
Perhaps my mistake to say "Rome" without clarification. Generally in ecclesiological or theological discussion when I refer to "Rome" I mean the church based in Rome with the Bishop of Rome or what became the papacy, not the Roman Empire. So yes, I can agree that the early British church existed when the Roman Empire was still Pagan, I am not aware of anyone that would seriously debate that.
So the Culdees were definitely not established by a pope in Rome.
I didn't say that they were.
 
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Davy

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Perhaps my mistake to say "Rome" without clarification. Generally in ecclesiological or theological discussion when I refer to "Rome" I mean the church based in Rome with the Bishop of Rome or what became the papacy, not the Roman Empire. So yes, I can agree that the early British church existed when the Roman Empire was still Pagan, I am not aware of anyone that would seriously debate that.

I didn't say that they were.

Just making sure readers here understand that the British Church was actually first, if we're talking about peoples as a nation first to accept Jesus Christ on national scales. Before the established Roman Church, the Roman armies in Briton took one of the kings of Breton and his daughter captive to Rome, and built a British palace there for them in captivity. It's hard to find much on this, except through the Romans historians, but they testified that the British king and daughter were Christians, as many of the pagan Romans were angry at their being allowed to live.
 
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Just making sure readers here understand that the British Church was actually first, if we're talking about peoples as a nation first to accept Jesus Christ on national scales. Before the established Roman Church, the Roman armies in Briton took one of the kings of Breton and his daughter captive to Rome, and built a British palace there for them in captivity. It's hard to find much on this, except through the Romans historians, but they testified that the British king and daughter were Christians, as many of the pagan Romans were angry at their being allowed to live.
Well, that's arguable, first is quite a claim to make. What would you consider the "nation" of Britons anyways? The island and peoples were a fractured grouping of people, tribes, allegiances, and nationalities aside from the Romans. The Celtic peoples of the islands were far from any unified political nation at that time.

There are other peoples with a similar claim. Ethiopia, Armenia, Kartli, Abyssinia, etc. all have strong claims. The key that makes it so debatable is "nations first to accept Jesus on a national scale". It's fairly easy to say the first to make it the "official state religion", but the claim of "national scale" is really nebulous and hard to pin down as the definition of "nation" is used in different ways.
 
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