Celibate LGBT people

[SilverBear]

I'm not sure if that is sympathy or satire.

Oh, i think you know.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

After seeing some recent comments and threads on here, I've become curious about some of the views that I've seen so I decided to make my own thread about this. I'm curious on what are your views on people who are attracted to the same sex, but since they believe acting on those attractions are sinful, they remain celibate for life. My question is this: Do you believe that they are still committing the sin of homosexuality* in this circumstance? Why?

*Please try to keep lust out of the conversation, I'm speaking strictly about homosexuality.

Acting on the desire is a grave sin.
As for lust (also could be a grave sin), that would be the same regardless of one's orientation. To that thought, we would need to differentiate between a glance and a passing thought and something we begin mulling over in the mind or something that is done for arousal. Only the second two would represent a grave offense.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

"Vile affections" isn't clear enough?

Like I said in my post, it is something you have control over, if it weren't then I would have never been able to repent. I was actually able to see the sin gradually disappear in my own eyes due to my efforts, desire for it to be rid of, and repentance. It took time, but it did go away completely.

Saying that we no longer sin because we're in Christ is no excuse to sin. While it's true that our sin nature is the one sinning and it's no longer us, scripture tells us in many places not to sin after having been justified. While there are some sins that are stubborn and some sins that will remain for quite a while, that doesn't mean we don't actively strive to rid ourselves from these sins, pray for them to be rid of, etc.
For example, lust for a woman is sin, but I dare say that no man in this life will overcome that sin because it's so strong. God knows that sin is strong, in fact many places in scripture man's lust for a woman is shown as a very strong force. But notice God doesn't call it a vile affection. In fact, before calling homosexual desire a vile affection, Paul writes that they actually left their natural desire for woman. Notice Paul calls that desire natural.
You really believe that something that is called a vile affection, something that is detestable, is something we can't be rid of? If you seek to rid yourself of homosexual desires, it will take time, but if you truly want them gone you can rid yourself of it. It's up to the person who has them, and whether they want it gone or not, how strongly they desire for it to be rid of.

1 Corinthians 6:12-13
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

This is amazing. What a wonderful work god did in you..alot of people like to cherry pick verses but you were serious about god and were rewarded for it. So what all did you do? How did you overcome it.. Can u list the practical steps and actions you took?

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

No, it isn't. This is not the case for any sin. That passage must be read in the context of all of Scripture.

One cannot sin against God in ways that one as no control over. We are all, without exception, the product of sin, which makes us all less than perfectly pure. We become pure only in Christ. (The full meaning of being in Christ includes that we never sin. 1 John has a lot about this.)

Leviticus 18:22 - You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

This is scripture...if you don't agree with this...what else do you cover your eyes too?

 

[Greg J.]

The verse you quoted talks about an action that is the result of a decision. What I spoke of is not an action at all.

 

[CodyFaith]

This is amazing. What a wonderful work god did in you..alot of people like to cherry pick verses but you were serious about god and were rewarded for it. So what all did you do? How did you overcome it.. Can u list the practical steps and actions you took?

And that's exactly how I see it as well, people cherry picking or twisting scripture for convenience is something many people do instead of viewing it with an honest heart and mind. They don't want it to say what it clearly says, so they do all sorts of jedi mind games with it until they reach a point where they no longer can and then typically will resort to taking authority away from Paul and/or scripture.

God did reward me, I'm very grateful to God for delivering me from all that.

I know I was honest with scripture and sought God's will in my sexual life and I knew that the desires I was having over men was wrong. I thought about creation, how God designed man for a woman and how it's probably one of the most clear commandments from God just by viewing nature itself. Man was designed for woman, and woman for man. God is completely pure and his creation is pure. So I thought about things like that. If I started to think lustfully towards men I would actively strive against even my own thoughts and desires. I knew God's will and I knew in my heart and mind that even the attraction was sin. I wasn't embarrassed or ashamed towards humans, no guilt in that regard because I didn't care what anyone else thought of me only what God thought of me and only sought to please God.
I didn't condemn myself over anything. I knew God saw my striving and I knew he would deliver me from something I didn't want to be. While we all have tricky sins and lusts that are hard to get rid of, for example lust towards women, I trusted that this wasn't something I would have to live with because I wanted a normal view of the sexes. I wanted to see men as men and women as women, and I didn't want anything less than that.

I will say that I'm not sure if I was already in Christ when I was striving to be rid of these sins. At the time I was rebelling against Christ himself but still believed strongly in God, and I'm not sure if I was saved before that and just started to walk away from him only to come back later or if I was only saved recently when I came back to Christ.

I think it matters to know whether I was in Christ or not because it might be harder for people to see their sin if they aren't already in Christ, thus harder for them to see the need to repent. I can't know for sure at this time if I was in Christ or not. Regardless, God always provides a way of deliverance. It's up to mankind to seek his deliverance and seek righteousness.

 

[Greg J.]

Homosexual actions are sins, but just as there is a problem in the church at large with not dealing with that fact well, there has been and is a bigger problem with Christians thinking they are less tainted with sin than LGBTs, or that they are somehow better people, or that they are more righteous in God's eyes.

It is a bigger problem, because it is not confined to attitude about LGBTs, it is an attitude that shows up in everything. It reveals a twisted attitude in a person that is inconsistent with Truth, love, and humility. It produces an attitude toward humans loved by God that God does not have, and he will pass judgment on it no matter who the person is, Christian or not.

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; (Romans 3:9-10, 1984 NIV)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23, 1984 NIV)

Being saved by grace alone means that no Christian has a claim to any level of goodness or righteousness whatsoever, and certainly not a greater level than any other person.

For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? (1 Corinthians 4:7, 1984 NIV)

We are saved by grace alone. That means that each Christian was saved even though she didn't deserve it any more than the worst sinners in history. Everyone has earned and deserves eternal punishment. If a person happens to be saved, the last thing he should be doing is looking down on anyone else, and that includes unbelievers, LGBTs (Christian or not), and people in the church that are interpreting the Leviticus verse incorrectly or differently. There is no justification in all creation sufficient to look down on another person.

I have not written about what one does or should do above, but the heart/attitude one has. A Christian that thinks he is a more morally pure person than an LGBT still has evil in his heart.

ALL of our goodness and righteousness is found in Jesus, and not even the tiniest bit is from ourselves, our understanding of the Word, our agreement with God that we have sinned, or our faith in God.

 

[ken777]

Homosexual actions are sins, but just as there is a problem in the church at large with not dealing with that fact well, there has been and is a bigger problem with Christians thinking they are less tainted with sin than LGBTs, or that they are somehow better people, or that they are more righteous in God's eyes.

It is a bigger problem, because it is not confined to attitude about LGBTs, it is an attitude that shows up in everything. It reveals a twisted attitude in a person that is inconsistent with Truth, love, and humility. It produces an attitude toward humans loved by God that God does not have, and he will pass judgment on it no matter who the person is, Christian or not.

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; (Romans 3:9-10, 1984 NIV)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23, 1984 NIV)

Being saved by grace alone means that no Christian has a claim to any level of goodness or righteousness whatsoever, and certainly not a greater level than any other person.

For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? (1 Corinthians 4:7, 1984 NIV)

We are saved by grace alone. That means that each Christian was saved even though she didn't deserve it any more than the worst sinners in history. Everyone has earned and deserves eternal punishment. If a person happens to be saved, the last thing he should be doing is looking down on anyone else, and that includes unbelievers, LGBTs (Christian or not), and people in the church that are interpreting the Leviticus verse incorrectly or differently. There is no justification in all creation sufficient to look down on another person.

I have not written about what one does or should do above, but the heart/attitude one has. A Christian that thinks he is a more morally pure person than an LGBT still has evil in his heart.

ALL of our goodness and righteousness is found in Jesus, and not even the tiniest bit is from ourselves, our understanding of the Word, our agreement with God that we have sinned, or our faith in God.

You are right to point out that some people think their sins are less evil than the sins of others. You are also right to point out that some people think they are better than people who experience same sex attraction.

I am often accused of both these attitudes because I am opposed to legislation & educational programs that promote ssm. We can be opposed to immorality without seeing ourselves as superior.

The reason homosexuality gets more attention than many other immoral behaviors is because soiety in general, and churches in particular, are facing the decision of whether to condone it or not.

 

[Fenny the Fox]

I do not believe homosexuality in and of itself is sinful. The attraction is merely a temptation. We are all tempted by something, even Jesus was tempted. Was Jesus guilty of sins when he was tempted in the dessert? I can't imagine anyone saying he was.
I do agree that acting on those temptations may well be sinful, though.

TL;DR:The action is the sin, not the temptation/attraction itself.

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't see homosexuality as sinful, but either way, wanting to do something is not the same as doing it.

if somebody doesnt do it, calling them by a label is an oxymoron.

 

[FireDragon76]

historically this passage in Romans has been used to denounce and vilify just about everyone: Jews, bastard children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, religious reformers, and the mentally ill. In this generation it is being used to target homosexuals. I'm sure that will change too.

Amazing how easily the Scriptures become a weapon, isn't it? But then, Christians are good at shooting the wounded.

 

[khristosanesti]

Having a strong temptation to sin and resisting it is not only not sinful, it's incredibly commendable.


Being tempted is certainly not sinful, to say that is to say that Christ was sinful which is blasphemy. Homosexual acts are sinful, that much is made clear in the Old Testament and the New Testament most specifically in the Pauline Epistles but the urge to sin is not sinful, if that were the case then every single married person would be an adulterer for finding man or woman aside from their spouse attractive.

 

[ken777]

Having a strong temptation to sin and resisting it is not only not sinful, it's incredibly commendable.
Being tempted is certainly not sinful, to say that is to say that Christ was sinful which is blasphemy. Homosexual acts are sinful, that much is made clear in the Old Testament and the New Testament most specifically in the Pauline Epistles but the urge to sin is not sinful, if that were the case then every single married person would be an adulterer for finding man or woman aside from their spouse attractive.

You make a good point distinguishing between temptation and acting on temptation. Also as you have noted, the Pauline epistles specifically state that homosexual acts are sinful. Romans chapter 1 is very specific in describing same sex behavior. There is no other way on understanding Romans 1:26-27.

If calling sin 'sin' is attacking anyone, then both Jesus & Paul were guilt of such attacks. It seems these days it is not fashionable to say the Bible calls something sin.

Homosexuals often complain they are being specifically targeted, when those within the Church respond to claims that homosexual acts are not sinful, with what the Bible actually says.

 

[khristosanesti]

You make a good point distinguishing between temptation and acting on temptation. Also as you have noted, the Pauline epistles specifically state that homosexual acts are sinful. Romans chapter 1 is very specific in describing same sex behavior. There is no other way on understanding Romans 1:26-27.

If calling sin 'sin' is attacking anyone, then both Jesus & Paul were guilt of such attacks. It seems these days it is not fashionable to say the Bible calls something sin.

Homosexuals often complain they are being specifically targeted, when those within the Church respond to claims that homosexual acts are not sinful, with what the Bible actually says.

Yes, the sin is the action. We all sin, every single human on earth has sinned and will sin again until they die — my problem is when so called churches like the Episcopalians for instance not only say that homosexuality is not a sin they say it's perfectly okay!


Churches should and for the most part do recognize that people sin, but they always should help and encourage them not too. The job of the Church is not to affirm our sinful nature, it's to lead us to salvation — which isn't easy and something we have to work out for our whole lives. It's not being judgemental it's about being concerned? Would you rather be affirmed in this life and go to hell in the next, or work a bit and resist your temptations and go to heaven? I want everyone to go to heaven, so I'm going to let them know when they do something that will keep them from that!


The Church focuses on issues that affect the earthly world, someone asked me why the Church doesn't condemn murder in general as a societal problem as much as they condemn abortion....that's because everyone knows that murder is wrong and something we shouldn't do whereas abortion (a form of murder) is touted as some sort of an inalienable right. Same thing with homosexuality! The church didn't go on and on about 100 years ago because there was no need, we as a society generally affirmed that it was not a good thing to do.

 

[SPF]

CodyFaith:

If you seek to rid yourself of homosexual desires, it will take time, but if you truly want them gone you can rid yourself of it. It's up to the person who has them, and whether they want it gone or not, how strongly they desire for it to be rid of.

I would be very careful when making claims like this. God works differently with different people. First off, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you weren't communicating clearly what you actually meant. Because there is nothing in this about how the power of freedom from sin comes entirely through Christ, and not our own strength of will.

Paul had a struggle that he referred to as a thorn in his flesh. He prayed and prayed and ask God to remove it. God said no. What if struggling with homosexuality is someone's thorn in their flesh? It can be a dangerous thing to take our personal experiences and interactions with God and blow them up to a universal standard for how God works with all people.

Cody, essentially what you've said is that all that matters in removing homosexual desires from one's life is a greater desire to do so. Do you actually believe that your desire to rid yourself of homosexual desires is greater than 100% of everyone else on the planet who struggles with this issue but has not been able to rid themselves of their desire? Seems prideful to me.

All of us possess a sinful nature from the moment of conception. I don't think it's a stretch to say that we are all affected differently by our sinful nature. Any of us with multiple children can testify to this. Each of my 3 boys are unique, and struggle with sin differently. One struggles with pride more than the others, one struggles with lying more than the others - our sinful nature affects us all differently and in differing amounts.

This doesn't justify sin on any level, but it should make us appreciate that our interactions with Christ, and our struggles may be different than someone else's struggles and someone else's interactions with Christ. Using ourselves as the standard model by which Christ will work in someone's life is a bit presumptuous.

The principles are the same for everyone, but the practice of those principles may vary with mileage.

 

[ken777]

CodyFaith: I would be very careful when making claims like this. God works differently with different people. First off, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you weren't communicating clearly what you actually meant. Because there is nothing in this about how the power of freedom from sin comes entirely through Christ, and not our own strength of will.

Paul had a struggle that he referred to as a thorn in his flesh. He prayed and prayed and ask God to remove it. God said no. What if struggling with homosexuality is someone's thorn in their flesh? It can be a dangerous thing to take our personal experiences and interactions with God and blow them up to a universal standard for how God works with all people.

Cody, essentially what you've said is that all that matters in removing homosexual desires from one's life is a greater desire to do so. Do you actually believe that your desire to rid yourself of homosexual desires is greater than 100% of everyone else on the planet who struggles with this issue but has not been able to rid themselves of their desire? Seems prideful to me.

All of us possess a sinful nature from the moment of conception. I don't think it's a stretch to say that we are all affected differently by our sinful nature. Any of us with multiple children can testify to this. Each of my 3 boys are unique, and struggle with sin differently. One struggles with pride more than the others, one struggles with lying more than the others - our sinful nature affects us all differently and in differing amounts.

This doesn't justify sin on any level, but it should make us appreciate that our interactions with Christ, and our struggles may be different than someone else's struggles and someone else's interactions with Christ. Using ourselves as the standard model by which Christ will work in someone's life is a bit presumptuous.

The principles are the same for everyone, but the practice of those principles may vary with mileage.

I agree with your post because nothing you've said denies the possibility of complete healing & deliverance through Jesus Christ. I also think your "thorn in the flesh" argument is cogent.

One thing we have learned is that a great many more people are affected by the temptation of same sex desires than we once thought, especially young people. For that reason we must fight the currently increasing notion that Christianity is compatible with homosexual behavior, without discouraging those for whom same sex attraction is a serious problem.