Celibacy and the Priesthood

Michie

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In a recent interview, Pope Francis addressed the question of celibacy and the priesthood in the Catholic Church. He said that it’s a discipline that he does not intend to re-examine: “I don’t feel ready to reconsider it yet, but obviously it’s a matter of discipline, which has nothing to do with dogma. Today it’s the case and tomorrow it may no longer be. . . . [A] “time may come when a pope, perhaps, will revisit it.”

That’s a common view: Priestly celibacy is a “discipline,” or an “ecclesial law,” and thus it is not a doctrine that must be preserved forever. It can be repealed.

In his 1967 encyclical Sacerdotalis Caelibatus (On the Celibacy of the Priest), Pope Paul VI stated that priestly celibacy is a “brilliant jewel” that the Church has “guarded for centuries,” and “retains its value undiminished even in our time.” (¶1) Eight times he refers to celibacy as a “discipline” and sixteen times he asserts that it is a “law.”

In its Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, Presbyterorum Ordinis, the Second Vatican Council observed that “celibacy is in harmony with the priesthood,” and, therefore, is to be preserved as a “discipline” and “law” of the Church. (¶16). Although the magisterium has ardently praised priestly celibacy and authoritatively upholds its continuance, I believe that it is more than simply an “ecclesial discipline,” or a “Church law.”

Obviously, it is not necessary that a man be celibate in order to be ordained to the priesthood. In Eastern Orthodoxy, it’s common for priests to be married, though they must be married prior to their ordination. Orthodox priests, however, must refrain from sexual intercourse a day or more before celebrating the liturgy. Eastern Orthodox bishops must be celibate.

Continued below.
 
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narnia59

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While the author makes some interesting points about the priesthood I would definitely have to disagree with his conclusion that priestly celibacy is dogma and is a development of doctrine. Or that it's dogmatically impossible to be rescinded by a council of a pope.

One of the key facts about the development of doctrine is in the word development, which is different than change. Since there have been married priests in the past (and even currently) it's not possible for doctrine to "develop" in a way that priestly celibacy becomes a dogma. That would require a development that is actually a "change" and not simply an expansion or clarification.

The thing I find most interesting is the requirement of Orthodox priests to abstain from sex with their wives the the day before they celebrate the Liturgy. I have heard that before. I wonder if that is true of our married Catholic priests as well. I also wonder if that has anything to do with the reason we have daily Mass but the Orthodox as far as I know only celebrate Divine Liturgy weekly.
 
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prodromos

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the Orthodox as far as I know only celebrate Divine Liturgy weekly
In many parishes we celebrate Saturday, Sunday and many feast days. In large parishes, more often, but then there will be more than one priest available so they are able to alternate.
 
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Michie

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JimR-OCDS

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Anybody who thinks allowing priests to be married would prevent sexual abuse of minors is totally clueless.
I believe it would have lessened the occurrence for sure.

Most married priest would be heterosexuals and the majority of sex abuse cases were committed by homosexual
priest with young teens and seminarians.

Heterosexual males have no desire in having sex with other males, but in fact find it disgusting.

Married priest with children, would've turned in priests who committed sexual abuse as protecting children,
especially their own becomes first priority for married men.

Sure, there are married men who have committed sexual abuse, I know a couple of them who were caught.

However, the vast majority of men, especially married men committed to Christ, would be less likely to commit
sexual abuse with others.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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The vocation of the priesthood would have to change for married priest to become the norm in the Church.

Ironically, the man who opposed married priest was a former priest who left to marry a former nun. He taught Scripture
in Rome and was a doctor of theology, and psychologist. It was him who said that the ministry would have to
change, as it would not work as current for married men.

As a profession, he was a fund raiser for various organizations, like protestant churches. He told me how he
provided counseling for the wives of ministers of those religions. He said that the wives resented their husband's
ministry. Often, they didn't own the houses or much of the furnishing's of the parish. The parish own them and
part of the income as pastor, was to live in the rectory with his wife and children. The wives were also under the
scrutiny of the parishioners. If they dressed too nice or spent money on eating out and such, their husband's pay
from the congregation was put into question.

So, married men to be allowed to become priest, much in the ministry would have to change. Would Catholics
welcome supporting a priest with his wife and children? At first people are open to the idea, but as my friend
stated above, resentment would follow in time.
 
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narnia59

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I believe it would have lessened the occurrence for sure.

Most married priest would be heterosexuals and the majority of sex abuse cases were committed by homosexual
priest with young teens and seminarians.

Heterosexual males have no desire in having sex with other males, but in fact find it disgusting.

Married priest with children, would've turned in priests who committed sexual abuse as protecting children,
especially their own becomes first priority for married men.

Sure, there are married men who have committed sexual abuse, I know a couple of them who were caught.

However, the vast majority of men, especially married men committed to Christ, would be less likely to commit
sexual abuse with others.
'However, the vast majority of men, especially married men committed to Christ, would be less likely to commit sexual abuse with others."

If that were true the numbers of abuse for example in the Baptist chuches would be less than the Catholic Church, since they primarily have married men committed to Christ as pastors. But they do not have fewer cases of abuse, they just have a different victim population. More young girls than young boys. So you shift the problem to a different set of victims but you don't fix it by having married priests. Homosexuals are no more likely to be abusers than heterosexuals, the target is just different.
 
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narnia59

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From another article Michie posted on another thread. I especially agree with the bolded part.

According to Bolivian radio network Erbol, Bishop Eugenio Coter argued that allowing married men to be ordained priests could be part of the solution to the problem of sexual abuse in the Church, since, he reportedly argued, marriage helps a person to develop an integrated sexuality, and provides companionship.

Please allow me to editorialize for a moment: Bishop Coter seemingly has rather profoundly misunderstood the dynamics of pederastic and pedophilac child abuse in any context. Marriage would not stop pederastic child abusers from committing abuse. In fact, as data from other public institutions shows us repeatedly, it doesn’t. And indeed, the most typical place for a child to be abused is in his extended family or among family friends, most of whom are not likely celibate.

Of course, I’ve seen it argued that there is a greater likelihood that married men will have a mature, integrated, and chaste sexuality than celibate men. I don’t see any reason to think that’s true — in fact, I don’t think it’s true. But even if it were, allowing for the possibility of married men wouldn’t, by itself, screen out from the priesthood men with the propensity or disposition to be abusers. Better screening, scrutiny, evaluation, and formation processes would do that, with the knowledge that sacred ordination, or admission to religious life, shouldn’t be offered to everyone who seeks it.

It is a demeaning view of marriage — and of women — to suggest that if only priests could be married, abuse would not happen. There is no evidence to suggest this, as experts in abuse and safeguarding have often argued.

Clerical celibacy has a long and rich theological and spiritual history in the West. It is not absolute, of course — deacons can be married men, as can members of the Church’s Anglican ordinariate. But celibacy is a disciplinary, not a doctrinal matter, and the Church could allow for more married men to become priests in the West. Certainly, there are prelates who think that’s a good idea.

But whatever their reasons, the notion that ending clerical celibacy would eradicate abuse is a red herring. At least as far as I can tell — If you think otherwise, let me know in the comments. I’d be interested to read your view.

 
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JimR-OCDS

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'However, the vast majority of men, especially married men committed to Christ, would be less likely to commit sexual abuse with others."

If that were true the numbers of abuse for example in the Baptist chuches would be less than the Catholic Church, since they primarily have married men committed to Christ as pastors. But they do not have fewer cases of abuse, they just have a different victim population. More young girls than young boys. So you shift the problem to a different set of victims but you don't fix it by having married priests. Homosexuals are no more likely to be abusers than heterosexuals, the target is just different.
I don't know the stats in the Baptist Church or other Protestant Denominations. However, my understanding of the
sexual abuse cases have to do with heterosexual ministers cheating on their wives. Sex abuse between male
ministers and children is near non-existent as it is in the Catholic Church. Pedophilia is an adult having sex with
a prepubescent child. The majority of abuse cases by priest are homosexual priest with young teen boys or
seminarians. Actual pedophilia cases by priests is less than 1%
 
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narnia59

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I don't know the stats in the Baptist Church or other Protestant Denominations. However, my understanding of the
sexual abuse cases have to do with heterosexual ministers cheating on their wives. Sex abuse between male
ministers and children is near non-existent as it is in the Catholic Church. Pedophilia is an adult having sex with
a prepubescent child. The majority of abuse cases by priest are homosexual priest with young teen boys or
seminarians. Actual pedophilia cases by priests is less than 1%
The stats for other Protestant denominations are primarily based on the payouts by insurance companies and it was for sexual abuse of minors, not simply extra-marital affairs. Those stats were released not too long after the Boston story broke and show there is a very comparable issue in Protestant denominations. Also, the majority of the Catholic abuse cases were decades old and these were much more recent. Your view that sex abuse between male ministers and children is near non-existent is simply false although there are a lot of people who would like us to believe that.


In the Baptist churches in particular, the SNAP organization got so many calls from victims of Baptist ministers at one point they had a SNAP-Baptist division. You will find stories not only of abuse but of collusion of church authorities to sweep it all under the rug. Very similar stories with the exception that instead of male on male abuse it is more predominantly male on female. This is not really recent but you can read a lot of the stories here.


The idea that a married clergy eliminates or significantly reduces the problem simply isn't true.
 
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zippy2006

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While the author makes some interesting points about the priesthood I would definitely have to disagree with his conclusion that priestly celibacy is dogma and is a development of doctrine. Or that it's dogmatically impossible to be rescinded by a council of a pope.

One of the key facts about the development of doctrine is in the word development, which is different than change. Since there have been married priests in the past (and even currently) it's not possible for doctrine to "develop" in a way that priestly celibacy becomes a dogma. That would require a development that is actually a "change" and not simply an expansion or clarification.

The thing I find most interesting is the requirement of Orthodox priests to abstain from sex with their wives the the day before they celebrate the Liturgy. I have heard that before. I wonder if that is true of our married Catholic priests as well. I also wonder if that has anything to do with the reason we have daily Mass but the Orthodox as far as I know only celebrate Divine Liturgy weekly.
The little-known fact is that Catholic clerical celibacy historically had less to do with the marital state than with the sexual act. Someone who argues for development of doctrine will hold that Catholic priests were not always celibate, but they were always chaste, and this position is not without historical evidence. (Ergo, they abstained from sex.) This is why your argument won't quite work. But you can see the connection to the Orthodox practice (which was of course also the practice of the Old Testament priests).

In fact, this law of chastity traditionally applied to deacons as well, but this is a sore point that today's deacons don't like talking about. ...hehe (This is a primary reason why a deacon's wife had to assent to his ordination, and also had veto power)
 
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zippy2006

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In a recent interview, Pope Francis addressed the question of celibacy and the priesthood in the Catholic Church...
I didn't realize this was from Weinandy! His point here is very interesting:

"There isn’t space here to trace the historical growth of priestly celibacy in the early Church. But Pope Benedict XVI, following the Old Testament tradition, makes a pertinent point. In his and Cardinal Robert Sarah’s book on celibacy, From the Depths of Our Hearts, Benedict states:​
Because of the regular and often even daily celebration of the Eucharist, the situation of the priests of the Church of Jesus Christ has changed dramatically. From now on, their entire life is in contact with the divine mystery. This requires on their part exclusivity with regard to God. Consequently, this excludes other ties that, like marriage, involve one’s whole life. From daily celebration of the Eucharist, which implies a permanent state of service to God, was born spontaneously the impossibility of a matrimonial bond. We can say that the sexual abstinence that was functional was transformed automatically into an ontological abstinence. Thus, its motivation and its significance were changed from within and profoundly.

Perhaps he is right that priestly celibacy is an authentic development. It would certainly be much more difficult to undo than most people realize.
 
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WarriorAngel

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In a recent interview, Pope Francis addressed the question of celibacy and the priesthood in the Catholic Church. He said that it’s a discipline that he does not intend to re-examine: “I don’t feel ready to reconsider it yet, but obviously it’s a matter of discipline, which has nothing to do with dogma. Today it’s the case and tomorrow it may no longer be. . . . [A] “time may come when a pope, perhaps, will revisit it.”

That’s a common view: Priestly celibacy is a “discipline,” or an “ecclesial law,” and thus it is not a doctrine that must be preserved forever. It can be repealed.

In his 1967 encyclical Sacerdotalis Caelibatus (On the Celibacy of the Priest), Pope Paul VI stated that priestly celibacy is a “brilliant jewel” that the Church has “guarded for centuries,” and “retains its value undiminished even in our time.” (¶1) Eight times he refers to celibacy as a “discipline” and sixteen times he asserts that it is a “law.”

In its Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, Presbyterorum Ordinis, the Second Vatican Council observed that “celibacy is in harmony with the priesthood,” and, therefore, is to be preserved as a “discipline” and “law” of the Church. (¶16). Although the magisterium has ardently praised priestly celibacy and authoritatively upholds its continuance, I believe that it is more than simply an “ecclesial discipline,” or a “Church law.”

Obviously, it is not necessary that a man be celibate in order to be ordained to the priesthood. In Eastern Orthodoxy, it’s common for priests to be married, though they must be married prior to their ordination. Orthodox priests, however, must refrain from sexual intercourse a day or more before celebrating the liturgy. Eastern Orthodox bishops must be celibate.

Continued below.
Examples of ecclesiastical positive law are fasting during the liturgical season of Lent, and religious workers (monks, nuns, etc.) requiring permission from their superiors to publish a book.


IE - they obey the 'discipline' as is law. If the Pope reconsiders and allows THEN they can be married.
Otherwise; they cannot just get married on their own accord and hope to enter the priesthood.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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The stats for other Protestant denominations are primarily based on the payouts by insurance companies and it was for sexual abuse of minors, not simply extra-marital affairs. Those stats were released not too long after the Boston story broke and show there is a very comparable issue in Protestant denominations. Also, the majority of the Catholic abuse cases were decades old and these were much more recent. Your view that sex abuse between male ministers and children is near non-existent is simply false although there are a lot of people who would like us to believe that.


In the Baptist churches in particular, the SNAP organization got so many calls from victims of Baptist ministers at one point they had a SNAP-Baptist division. You will find stories not only of abuse but of collusion of church authorities to sweep it all under the rug. Very similar stories with the exception that instead of male on male abuse it is more predominantly male on female. This is not really recent but you can read a lot of the stories here.


The idea that a married clergy eliminates or significantly reduces the problem simply isn't true.
Payouts by insurance companies can be misleading, as they often settle an accusation rather than go to trial,
as it's cheaper.

So, an accusation may be made, but it doesn't reflect true guilt or not.

Fact is, the Catholic Church did the same with priests who were accused. Today, with the Zero Tolerance
policy, they remove the priest and if he's innocent, the diocese will fight it.
 
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narnia59

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Payouts by insurance companies can be misleading, as they often settle an accusation rather than go to trial,
as it's cheaper.

So, an accusation may be made, but it doesn't reflect true guilt or not.

Fact is, the Catholic Church did the same with priests who were accused. Today, with the Zero Tolerance
policy, they remove the priest and if he's innocent, the diocese will fight it.
Neither do the accusations made against Catholic priests in those large numbers reflect true guilt.

There is the actual abuse that occurred. There is a subset of that which got reported. There is a subset of that whereby claims get paid.

So we're not even comparing apples to oranges here because the smallest subset from other religious groups (claims that were paid) is compared to the entirely of what got reported in the Catholic Church. And the numbers per year are comparable.

Here's the other kicker though. Those insurance claim numbers were over approximately the last 10 years (I think from the early 2000s). If you just look at the same 10 year timeframe, the Catholic Church's numbers are way lower, because the greatest percentage of our total numbers are from the 60s through the 80s.

Which all gets back to the point that a married clergy doesn't do anything to really address the problem.
 
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narnia59

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The little-known fact is that Catholic clerical celibacy historically had less to do with the marital state than with the sexual act. Someone who argues for development of doctrine will hold that Catholic priests were not always celibate, but they were always chaste, and this position is not without historical evidence. (Ergo, they abstained from sex.) This is why your argument won't quite work. But you can see the connection to the Orthodox practice (which was of course also the practice of the Old Testament priests).

In fact, this law of chastity traditionally applied to deacons as well, but this is a sore point that today's deacons don't like talking about. ...hehe (This is a primary reason why a deacon's wife had to assent to his ordination, and also had veto power)
The impact on a deacon's family is enough of a reason the wife has to assent regardless of any requirement to abstain from sex, which is not the case.

If my argument doesn't work then that would mean that those ordained under the pastoral provision aren't valid priests.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Neither do the accusations made against Catholic priests in those large numbers reflect true guilt.

There is the actual abuse that occurred. There is a subset of that which got reported. There is a subset of that whereby claims get paid.

So we're not even comparing apples to oranges here because the smallest subset from other religious groups (claims that were paid) is compared to the entirely of what got reported in the Catholic Church. And the numbers per year are comparable.

Here's the other kicker though. Those insurance claim numbers were over approximately the last 10 years (I think from the early 2000s). If you just look at the same 10 year timeframe, the Catholic Church's numbers are way lower, because the greatest percentage of our total numbers are from the 60s through the 80s.

Which all gets back to the point that a married clergy doesn't do anything to really address the problem.
I agree that celibacy has nothing to do with the sexual abuse cases against Catholic Priest, as the majority
of cases was by homosexual priest with young teen boys, exploring their own sexuality, and seminarians.

The cases of protestant ministers on the other hand were mostly ministers cheating on their wives.

Again, insurance settlements doesn't provide a clear picture of guilt.
 
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narnia59

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I agree that celibacy has nothing to do with the sexual abuse cases against Catholic Priest, as the majority
of cases was by homosexual priest with young teen boys, exploring their own sexuality, and seminarians.

The cases of protestant ministers on the other hand were mostly ministers cheating on their wives.

Again, insurance settlements doesn't provide a clear picture of guilt.
There is no clear picture of guilt against most of the accusations against Catholic priests either, especially since many of the accusations happened decades before they were reported and the priests aren't alive to even try to present a defense. And for those that were, it's almost impossible to present a defense when that much time has passed.
 
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