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Featured LDS Celestial Marriage...100% false.

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Psa 90:1 A Prayer of Moses the man of God.
    Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
    Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


    God formed from nothing---JS did not speak truth.
     
  2. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    The Kingdom of God, God's dwelling place, the New Jerusalem, etc. In other words, names actually found in the Bible. According to your theology, God only dwells in the lds celestial kingdom. By Biblical standards, the lds terrestial and telestial kingdoms cannot be called heavenly places since God does not dwell there. Furthermore, there are no "levels" in heaven, so the lds celestial version cannot be true, either.

    Therefore, you have a dilemma with Matthew 7:23. You believe something other than what Christ and his apostles taught, so that warning is directed at you.

    Which totally dismisses Ephesians 2:8-9 and other Scripture. Since you like quoting OT Scripture, how about reflecting on Isaiah 64:6:

    All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

    Our works are evidence of our salvation; our salvation is not the product of our works.
     
  3. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Where does Jesus refer to himself as a "hot person"? Where does he say that we need to be "a pretty hot person" to be with him? :scratch: You are definitely not following the gospel here.
     
  4. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The two verses you quoted say nothing about our hope of the divine nature of God, but these do:
    (New Testament | 2 Peter 1:4)

    4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    (New Testament | Revelation 3:21)

    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    (New Testament | John 10:34 - 36)

    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    The scriptures say Jesus became God:

    (New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
     
  5. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    You say there are no levels in heaven, but why are there three heavens then? As I have shown before, works are indeed important, would you deny God?:
    (New Testament | Titus 1:16)

    16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
    (New Testament | 1 Peter 2:12)

    12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
    (New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

    16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
    We are not saved by works, but if you believe we was saved without works you are in for a disappointment. It is impossible to keep the commandments without works.
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    So wrong! Jesus was God before the world began--He created everything. He became man.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    It's not rocket science---the first heaven is the atmosphere around the earth--what is called the firmament in the bible. The second heaven is where all the stars, planets and galaxies are--where God placed all the lights ---what we call "outer space". The 3rd heavens is where He dwells.
     
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    You are mixed up. That was a quote from Phoebe Ann, ask her not Peter.
     
  9. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Are you arguing with the Bible? Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to God so He did.
     
  10. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    That is your opinion, there is no scriptural reference to this.
     
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I am not going against the bible--Jesus was God before He became man. Of course He "thought it not robbery to be equal with God"--He was already God with Him! JS has it all backwards---God the Son was always God then he became man, and retains His divinity now as well as His humanity. That is what the truth of the bible is. God becoming man. Not man becoming God. That is how much love our God has for us. JS was a man with a lust for power and it is his desire to be God that overrides what the truth of the bible says. It is the same desire that Lucifer has and that is the very same lie that he, now Satan, told to Eve---
    Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    The end result of that knowledge was

    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    The result was not that Eve would now bare children, she would have anyway--now, however--it would be in pain. Had she not fallen, childbirth would not have brought discomfort, nor pain. But God provided a way out and He foretold Satan's end and the "bruise" that would befall Jesus.
    It is the love of G
    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. towards us that is shown by God the Son becoming man---it is not that man can become God!!
     
  12. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me!! Look, read the bible--Jesus called the atmosphere around us the firmament, then He put the lights of the heavens, beyond our lights is the 2nd heaven--where the other galaxies are---His dwelling place is the 3rd heaven.
    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
    Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

    2Co_12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knowet such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    It is you that has no biblical foundation for this 3 levels of the heavenly kingdom.
     
  13. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Like mormonism in general, you contradict yourself and use circular reasoning. May you quit chasing your tail and know the real meaning of God's grace.
     
  14. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Additional Scripture references:

    1st Heaven:
    I will destroy humanity whom I have created from the face of the earth, both humans and beasts, creeping thing and birds of heaven (Genesis 6:7).
    And he [Elijah] prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced fruit (James 5:18).

    2nd Heaven:
    And take heed, lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage (Deuteronomy 4:19).
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Matthew 24:29).

    3rd Heaven:
    But will indeed God dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You (1 Kings 8:27).
    The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven (Hebrews 8:1).

    So, for you to say there is no Scriptural reference is ignoring Scripture itself.
     
  15. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    What? You had originally asked me how I knew that Christ is God by nature whereas we are not, so I responded with verses about that. Now you're saying that the verses I quoted didn't talk about something else which you didn't originally ask me about...oops? :doh:

    Yeah, I addressed this already in that reply.

    Yeah, and if you're silly enough to take the prophecy of the Spirit literally, then you'll be having dinner with Jesus, too, together with the entire Church of the Laodiceans, excepting those whom Jesus Christ (again, literally, as you'd have it) vomits out of his mouth...so, y'know...bring some napkins in either case!

    "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

    +++

    Yes. What's wrong with this? He's saying "Hey, fellow Jews, your scriptures say that you are called gods and you have no problem with that, so if you have no problem with that being said of yourselves to whom the scriptures came, why do you have a problem with me saying that I am the Son of God for having been sent from God the Father likewise?" He's comparing their defense of the scriptures which contain a similar idea with their bristling at him saying about himself the He is likewise sent from God, as they already believed of their holy writings which ought to have already clued them into the concept of being 'sons of God', since again, they can't have a problem with that without having a problem with their own scriptures.

    Oh they do not. Mormonism has just made you unable to read beyond the most simple-minded and unconvincing proof-texting imaginable. Quoting even just a little bit beyond the two verses you've focused on shows how it can't possibly mean that, and in fact says the exact opposite.

    Here, I'll show you. Here's what you quoted:

    (New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

    And here it is in context, from the beginning of the chapter up through verse 11 (this is where there is a paragraph break in my Bible, so I figured it'd be a natural place to end):

    1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    +++

    Did'ya happen to notice the part directly after where you stopped quoting? I put it in big text so that hopefully this time you won't overlook it. Do you notice how it says that He "made Himself of no reputation", and "came in the likeness of a man", and "became obedient to the point of death", etc.? Wouldn't those phrasings be just a little bit strange if in fact the point of the passage was that He was a man who became God, and not the other way around? If you're already a man, you don't have to make yourself a man. You already are one. You don't need to make yourself what you already are. That's what being something is. (Ow. My brain. This is so stupidly obvious it is hurting my brain.) And "becoming obedient to the point death" makes no sense, either, as men don't die as a matter of obedience, but because men are not naturally immortal. But you know Who is immortal by nature, right? I'll give you one guess... :D

    For Christians, this part of the Bible is yet another testament to the reality of the incarnation of Christ our God, whereby God became man. This is why you find it alluded to rather heavily (in some of the same wording: "...did not consider equality with God a thing to be held on to, but released it and emptied yourself, and took the form of a servant...") in the Coptic Orthodox Christmas liturgy, for instance:



    What you are preaching instead (the opposite of what actually happened) is some kind of weird adoptionism, which is one of the oldest heresies encountered and conquered by the Church. It is arguably countered in the scriptures themselves (and I only write "arguably" because it didn't emerge as its own heresy until the 2nd century, so it is obviously not mentioned by name in the scriptures, though the ideas behind it are countered in, e.g., John 1:18, John 3:16, Romans 8:32, etc.), but even if you were to argue that isn't, then we still have witnesses in the late 2nd/early 3rd century (i.e., contemporaneous or nearly so with the full-blown birth of the heresy itself) who call it as a heresy in their own time, such as St. Hippolytus of Rome.

    Mormonism is nothing but a repackaging of ancient heresies under new names. If it was wrong in the first, second, and third centuries (and it was), what on earth makes you think it would be right in the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries? It wasn't then, and it still isn't, and it won't be next time, either.
     
  16. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    You said "The end result of that knowledge was ....." Actually this was the end result.

    (Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

    22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    You said: "it is not that man can become God!!" Do you have anything to back that up?
     
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You are right, in order to be in Jesus's presence and withstand his glory, as you sit with him on his throne, you will need to be like him. Not blasphemy. Thank you.
     
  18. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Right, you do not trust in your own understanding, but in the word of God, both biblical and through the Holy Spirit.
     
  19. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Second heaven is not mentioned in the Bible nor is the first heaven. The Bible not give a description of the third heaven either, you are making an assumption based on your beliefs.
     
  20. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    In this scripture God put the stars, which you call the second heaven in the firmament which you call the first heaven, so why would it be the first and second heaven?
     
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