CBS explores impact of tax cuts

[hislegacy]

Do you know the difference between debt and deficit?

Why yes I do! Do you?

 

[hislegacy]

I don't understand why you won't admit it's not that simple to blame a single person.

leader
[lee-der]
noun

1. a person or thing that leads.
   
   
2. a guiding or directing head, as of an army, movement, or political group.
   
   
   

 

[FenderTL5]

Why yes I do! Do you?

Yes, I know the difference and that's the reason I asked.
Some of your previous comments seemed to draw into question whether you did or not.
Since you said you know the difference, I don't feel compelled to explain to you how/why the deficit can be lowered and the debt continue to rise at the same time.

 

[hislegacy]

Yes, I know the difference and that's the reason I asked.
Some of your previous comments seemed to draw into question whether you did or not.
Since you said you know the difference, I don't feel compelled to explain to you how/why the deficit can be lowered and the debt continue to rise at the same time.

That’s good because I have been speaking of the debt.

Good job. Let’s keep it on topic

 

[Allandavid]

That’s good because I have been speaking of the debt.

Oh, really...?

Eight years of deficit spending to the tune of a 100% increase and the slowest recession recovery on record.

Someone seems a little confused...

 

[AllButNone]

The Federal Debt doubled in his eight years

But do you understand why it did? Do you believe that Donald Trump is accountable for FY2017's $666 billion deficit? If yes, why, and what do you think he could have done differently? If not, why would you then believe Obama is accountable for FY2009's 1.4 trillion deficit?

There's something you always ignore in your arguments: context. Obama took office during a very deep recession that collapsed tax revenue and warranted fiscal stimulus. The idea behind fiscal stimulus is that it's short term, a shot of adrenaline. A lot of democrats don't want nor expect fiscal stimulus to last indefinitely. After 8 years of economic growth, I imagine most would like to see measures that start addressing the issue.

This context matters. Fiscal stimulus after 8 years of economic growth, without any sign of an economic downturn, is counterproductive. Many republicans opposed fiscal stimulus when it mattered most, but now those same republicans embrace it in the current economic context. Again, why? And why is it so difficult for people to understand these different contexts require different actions?

Finally, what do you think is going to happen when the next recession hits if steps to address current budget deficits aren't taken now, when the economy is doing reasonably well?

 

[KCfromNC]

View attachment 217101

For some reason your chart implies Obama took office in '08. Might want to fix that.

 

[hislegacy]

There's something you always ignore in your arguments: context

Pblllt

During the Bush administration we had billions of dollars lost in 911, followed by two wars and then Katrina where over 1,000,000 were effected and he didn’t raise the debt as much as Obama.

Care to explain that away?

Obama’s motto: the buck stops somewhere else.

 

[hislegacy]

For some reason your chart implies Obama took office in '08. Might want to fix that.

Well at least you actually looked! That something new.

 

[KCfromNC]

Well at least you actually looked! That something new.

Nice attempt to dodge the fact that the chart you posted doesn't support your faith.

 

[JohnHarthover]

At the moment, most folks get some tax cuts largely paid for by loans. But most of the money from those loans is going to the richest folks in America - people who really do not need the money. The question is who will pay back those loans? Probably not those rich folks..

 

[hislegacy]

Nice attempt to dodge the fact that the chart you posted doesn't support your faith.

My faith is in Jesus Christ. No one else. But thank you for the opportunity to share that.

And why is it that when you get a reply you don’t like do you have to get insulting and personal? Let’s address the topic of the post and not the poster

I think I read that somewhere.

 

[Veritas]

I don't believe the 13 million who will lose healthcare see it as a benefit. And many who are not wealthy will see their taxes creep up and will pay more by 2025.

see The Tax Bill’s Winners and Losers

THE ELDERLY A 2010 law requires that any legislation that adds to the federal deficit be paid for by spending cuts, increases in revenue or other offsets. Some cuts would be automatic, and the biggest program to be affected is Medicare, the health insurance program for the elderly and disabled. Dozens of other programs are likely to be cut as well, but Medicare, which would face a 4 percent cut, is by far the biggest. Republicans say that this rule will be waived and the cuts will be averted, but that will take a bipartisan deal.....

LOW-INCOME FAMILIES Low-income families who claim the earned-income tax credit will lose out on at least $19 billion over the coming decade under the bill because of the change in the way inflation is calculated. And a new requirement that families claiming the child tax credit provide a Social Security number is projected to mean a big reduction in the families claiming it, since those who are not in the United States legally would be prohibited, even if their children were born in the United States.
​

But the multimillionaires are really going to benefit big time.

​

Millions lost their healthcare due to Obamacare when it was first signed into law. Remember the Big Lie: "if you like you plan you can keep your plan".

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

leader
[lee-der]
noun

1. a person or thing that leads.
   
   
2. a guiding or directing head, as of an army, movement, or political group.
   

Our system of government has many leaders before and after; it's not a monarchy or dictatorship with a clear line of succession with consistent policy.

The recession wasn't caused by a single person or happened without cause. President Obama wasn't in office or the whole of Congress leading up to the recession; and it didn't happen after he had time to influence the economy with his policies. All those in positions of authority are responsible, in government and on Wall Street etc.; and accordingly they should be fairly accounted.

 

[AllButNone]

Care to explain that away?

Yes.

**Note, I made a bit of an error in my original post, understating how much of the tax decline was due to automatic stabilizers. Automatic stabilizers account for about $2.65 trillion of the debt increase by themselves.

Component A: Automatic stabilizers
When a recession hits, government spending increases automatically by design. This wasn't set by Obama, but has been established over decades of policy. You can read about such automatic stabilizers here, and you can see that even as far as 2012 those stabilizers contributed $386 billion to the federal deficit. Adjusting policy to erase these automatic stabilizers would be problematic, as they'd ensure any subsequent recession would hit far harder, but it's also politically impossible.

Component B: Collapse in federal revenue
A lot of this comes by way of automatic stabilizers mentioned above. In FY2008, revenue was $2524 billion, and in FY2009 it was $2105. This is an instant $400 billion deficit, yet government still has to maintain spending commitments established by previous governments. This $400 billion doesn't just bounce back, either, it only comes back slowly over time through growth.

Component C: Previous deficits
Even before the recession there was still a $200 billion deficit.

Now as I've already mentioned, there is some overlap, but all things considered, we're looking at deficits of $800 billion or more, declining only moderately over time, before Obama even lifts a finger.

Of course Obama did pass policy that increased the deficit further, like the ARRA, and making the Bush tax cuts permanent. While these actions did add an additional $2 trillion or so to the debt, these were wholly appropriate policies at the time. However, it remains that the bulk of what you blame Obama for was baked into the system.

So then the question is, why didn't Obama do more to reduce the deficit? Well, deficits did generally decline under his presidency. When reducing deficits, you don't want to instantly erase them, you want to draw them down slowly. Cutting $1 trillion in government spending, or raising taxes by $1 trillion, or some combination of the two done in a short period would trigger another economic crisis nearly as big as the 2009 recession itself. So you aim for a slow decline, much like in this chart.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Millions lost their healthcare due to Obamacare when it was first signed into law. Remember the Big Lie: "if you like you plan you can keep your plan".

No, that is not true. Their current plans may have been cancelled but they were not denied coverage under another plan. That actually happens quite a bit. My current plan is not being continued into 2018, but I am moving to a different, equally covering plan.

 

[KCfromNC]

Let’s address the topic of the post and not the poster

I did, post 47. Care to address it?

 

[KCfromNC]

No, that is not true. Their current plans may have been cancelled but they were not denied coverage under another plan. That actually happens quite a bit. My current plan is not being continued into 2018, but I am moving to a different, equally covering plan.

Yes, this has happened to me as well. And I'm talking about employer provided plans pre ACA.

 

[hislegacy]

Millions lost their healthcare due to Obamacare when it was first signed into law. Remember the Big Lie: "if you like you plan you can keep your plan".

I’m one of those millions who was lied to. I could not keep my plan, my plan doubled before I dropped my healthcare coverage and then on top of it, I paid a penalty tax for not being able to afford the affordable healthcare.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I’m one of those millions who was lied to. I could not keep my plan, my plan doubled before I dropped my healthcare coverage and then on top of it, I paid a penalty tax for not being able to afford the affordable healthcare.

And now your plan is going to triple, but at least there's no penalty tax... just a slew of other taxes which were once deductions, but not anymore.

And of course, in a few years, your taxes go up again...