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Featured Caution! NOT for the weak in faith

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Blood Bought 1953, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Sure it does:

    1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

    2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

    3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

    4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

    6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter
    . - Romans 7:1-6

    Old covenant (Law), New covenant (grace in Christ).
     
  2. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I don't agree with purgatory, but you don't need to be rude about it.
     
  3. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    The Law was our "school master", and it "stops our mouths" before God. In the Law we see and know God's righteous standard of perfection, and we realize that we have not met that standard. All have fallen short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no not one.

    Yes, the power of God unto salvation. Salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

    Goodnight and God bless.
     
  4. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Yes we are dead to sin, BECAUSE of the power of the Holy Spirit chapter 8. 7:1-6 shows again we are not under the law. But then Paul goes on to say in 13-25, which was the only part I asked you about, that the law was holy, it was sin that was the problem, thus the battle of mind over nature BEFORE Christ. At the end of chapter 7 it answers the question of who can save me from that constant battle of knowledge of the law over carnal nature. And the answer is Jesus. If the law could save us, Christ died in vain. We can't love as commanded. Only by becoming dead to sin, and empowered by the Spirit can we bear fruit.

    If I don't get to bed soon, I'll be on this computer all night!
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Last thing for tonight. "All have fallen short of the glory of God" since Adam's sin. But then Jesus came and gave us His Spirit... We don't need to fall short anymore if we yield to walking in the Spirit. "Without holiness, no one will see God."
     
  6. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    And which part of that did I contradict? I believe that is exactly what I have been saying.

    Only Christ saves. But also, Paul was speaking present tense about the flesh warring against the Spirit. This earthly, physical body is still subject to sin and temptation, and it will either die or be instantly changed at Christ's return (if we are still living).

    This "corruption" must put on "incorruption" and this "mortal", "immortality." This event, where we receive our new bodies, has not happened yet.

    Now, I really do need to sleep. God bless.
     
  7. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Indeed. His holiness, not ours. We can do nothing apart from Him.

    Night.
     
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I think that was the one I agree to.
     
  9. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Yep, that's what I've been saying.

    :sleep:
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
    biblehub.com/1_john/3-4.htm

    1 John 3:4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah.

    Matthew 5:18, Yeshua dismisses any idea that by fulfilling the Torah, its importance and validity will somehow end by His work. He says, “Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass” ...
     
  11. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    OK. So this statement from St. Paul applies to believers:

    Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    That means if a believer does "sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these" he "will not inherit the kingdom of God."
     
  12. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    No, James is not answering the question of "how can we know that another person is saved." He does not directly raise that question anywhere in the text, although he touches upon the idea tangentially.

    But we can discuss James 2 in more detail later. I hope that at the end of it you will not attempt to throw the book of James in the trash, as did Martin Luther, the creator of Sola Fide.

    Amen.

    16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

    Amen. But whether you and I will forsake Jesus, that question remains very much up in the air. Neither one of us is omniscient and knows what will happen tomorrow.

    No, Scripture does not teach that. I already provided you with a verse that directly disproves that.

    Here is all the other explanation that you need:

    Mortal and Venial Sin? | Catholic Answers

    The most common Bible verse used against the very Catholic and very biblical doctrines concerning mortal and venial sin is James 2:10-11:

    For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.”

    The argument is made from this text that all sins are the same before God. Is this true?

    Two Points in Response:

    First, the context of James 2 reveals St. James to have been talking about showing partiality for the first nine verses leading up to verses ten and eleven. In verse one St. James says, “My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.” St. James then goes on to say that if we show partiality, for example, toward the rich at the expense of the poor, we fail to keep what he calls “the royal law, according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’” (verse 8). He then says, in verse nine, “But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.” This is his lead-in to talking about keeping the commandments.

    The point here is we cannot pick and choose who we are going to love as the Lord commands and who we are not going to love. On Judgment Day, we cannot say, “But I loved over six billion people as I love myself, Lord! I only hated that one guy!” It is an all or nothing proposition. In the same way, we cannot say to God on Judgment Day, “But I kept the other nine commandments, Lord!”

    The second point I would make here is if you read the rest of verse 11, St. James explains a little more precisely what he means.

    For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

    He never says anything remotely related to “all sins are equal.” He does not say, “If you commit adultery, you are guilty of murder, lying, stealing, etc.” as if there is no difference between these sins. The gravity of each sin is not his point. He simply points out that if you break any of these laws, you have become a transgressor of the law. Again, I believe he is saying you cannot pick and choose which of God’s laws you will obey and those you will not. You must obey all of them.​

    Of course they were grafted in because of faith, just as they will be subsequently be cut off if they do not continue in faith. Either way, the verses refute the idea of "Once Saved Always Saved".

    Exactly what the text states:

    26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

    When a person deliberately commits rape, kills, commits adultery, etc. he rejects Jesus as the Lord his life, regardless of how much undying love for the Lord he professes otherwise.

    And Hebrews 10 says absolutely nothing about the "willful sin" or "sinning deliberately" being only "the sin of rejecting Christ". The sins that are discussed in verses 26 to 31 are the same exact sins that are discussed in verses 1 to 25. The same type of sins that the Jews previously scarified bulls and goats for, and the same type of sins that Jesus offered himself for.

    Now, I bet that someone will want to say "It is not I, but the sin within me that commits rape, kills, and commits adultery, just ask St. Paul teaches in Romans 7. I really did not want to rape, kill, and commit adultery, because 'I really love the Lord in my heart and want to do his will.'" That is not what St. Paul is saying in Romans 7, which you have to continue reading through Romans 8 to understand.

    Amen.

    You mean this verse:

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
    That certainly sounds like a Christian cannot rape, murder, and commit adultery to me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  13. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    What do you think Paul was writing about in Romans 7?

    What do you think he meant when he said "in my flesh dwells no good thing"? Or "I am carnal, sold under sin"? Or that with his flesh he serves "the law of sin"?

    What do you think is meant by "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom"?

    This is what I meant before, people (and I'm not saying you) don't seem to understand how deep sin actually goes. In our "flesh" we are all guilty of those things, (and he who offends in one, offends in all) they are indeed "works of the flesh". However, we now walk in the Spirit and live as new creations in Christ. The inner man is without sin. And one day, we will receive immortal, imperishable and incorruptible bodes, which can inherit the kingdom.

    God bless.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Thank you !
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Not everyone by far will inherit eternal life, no. Most do not.
    They don't care how much they sin, or how deep sin actually goes, according to all Scripture. Only a few find the narrow road to life. This is a painful truth everywhere, and few ever accept this, and few ever turn to God to be saved. Many turn to man to be saved, and go arm in arm down the wide road ......
    Few ever find the narrow road to life(Jesus).
     
  16. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    That is precisely what James is addressing, actually. James is written to believers, already saved, who were not living that faith out in the sight of other people. Scripture is clear, we are justified to God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works.

    We can, but we've been over this, and we obviously do not agree on the actual context and intent of James.

    Absurd. I don't have a problem with James at all. James does not teach a works based salvation. There is no contradiction.

    And what would that sin that leads to death be, do you think? The willful sin of rejecting Christ, our only hope of salvation, perhaps? Or was Paul writing of physical death here? We need to understand the proper context after all, not all "death" referred to in Scripture is eternal in nature.

    I trust Scripture. Even when I am "faithless" (that is, I fail and do not live up to God's righteous standards) He abides faithful and cannot deny Himself. I am sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, and He that began this good work in me, He will bring it to completion.

    I trust Him, I rest in Him.

    The wages of sin is death. All sin.


    I am aware of Catholic Answers and what the Catholic Church teaches on this subject, thank you.

    But yes, he who offends in one, offends in all. Also, as Jesus said, hate is a murder and lust is as adultery.


    Yes, exactly. This is why all sin is mortal.
    This is why the only hope we have is in the only One who has perfectly obeyed God's Law and met His righteous standards.

    What does it mean to "continue in faith"? Faith is not self-effort.


    I've addressed what the "willful sin" is already, according to Scripture.

    Again, what is meant by "trampling the Son of God underfoot"? Or "profaning the blood of the covenant"?

    And when you have even one envious thought, even one lazy moment, even one second where you give into worry or despair, even one instance where you put just one small thing above God, if you tell even one lie, if you get angry with someone unjustly even once, or say even one unkind thing, you are equally guilty. That is how serious sin is, that is how deep sin goes, and that is how high God's righteous and holy standard is.

    So, who then can be saved? Where is our hope? In ourselves and our "making Him Lord of our lives? In our righteous acts of obedience and submission? No. In Christ alone, the only One who has lived a sinless, blameless life, entirely. The only Way to be saved.

    "Only the sin of rejecting Christ"?

    It seems you don't believe that rejecting Christ is all that serious, as though there are more serious sins than that.

    Scripture is clear, there is no other sacrifice for sin. If anyone considers the blood of Christ an "unclean thing" and insufficient to cleanse us from sin, than that person remains in their sin and they surely will not be saved.

    I would say there is absolutely no more serious sin than that. To reject the only Way, the only Truth, the only Life, Jesus Christ.

    Jesus offered Himself for all sin. The Old Testament sacrificial system was a "type and shadow", pointing to Christ.

    Paul was absolutely clear about the sin in his flesh in Romans 7. And the point is, you do not need to actually kill someone physically to commit murder in the eyes of God. Jesus is clear, hatred is as murder. Nor do you need to actually have sex with someone outside of marriage, to commit adultery, as Jesus said, lust is as adultery. So who then can claim they are blameless of these sins before God? Apart from Christ, no one. Sin is deadly serious indeed.

    What it says is that only those who do "the will of the Father" will enter the kingdom of heaven. So, what does Jesus say the "will of the Father is?"
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Just a footnote of sorts, in the world the controversy is such that here you may be arguing with 54 miles underground library set up to disobey God and to oppose Him. i.e. several multitudes of words , over many centuries written, all for the purpose of opposing you and me and all who seek to hear God and to DO HIS WORD. No amount of replies or words or evidence or signs and wonders even will ever change that library, until God takes action. (it is a very real library, used by multitudes to pervert the Gospel of Jesus every day)
     
  18. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Yes, but don't you know Jesus giving us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us makes us DEAD to SIN? That is why IF we walk in the Spirit we are not under the law. That "if" is before the condition. Why? Because the Holy Spirit in us leading us won't break His laws. Our new nature loves what God loves, and hates what God hates.

    It is no longer don't break the Law, but don't quench the Spirit. That is the test. If you keep sinning, you may not have the Spirit at all, or you've quenched Him. And if you keep quenching Him, you've chosen a new master, the devil, thus the wages of sin is death. But, if you don't quench Him, the power of the Holy Spirit keeps growing in you until you are complete in Him. That is how "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it." The condition being, IF you don't quench the process.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  19. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Sorry, but it is not worth posting and re-posting with you again - for a while I thought there was hope, but when we got to the crux of the issue, you backed out and left (the threads). This happened more often and with several others showing you the Scripture, and they did not get anywhere with you either,
    so I don't see the point any more,
    other than as God leads to post warnings or red flags as possible vs your posts.
     
  20. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    That's fine, Jeff. If you want to keep posting the letter of the law which kills, instead of focusing on the Spirit which gives life, that is up to you to quench or be made complete in Him. The choice is yours.
     
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