Caution! NOT for the weak in faith

Blood Bought 1953

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Of course I believe in purgatory, and so do you.

You just call the final after-death purification something other than purgatory.

That is hogwash.. purgatory is a PLACE not an after death purification “process” . The purification process involves punishment until YOU, not Jesus are punished to the degree that will make you worthy to enter Heaven.perhaps your church has changed the rules this week or year....but unless your church has changed something...that description is purgatory....i’ll Cut you some slack , pal......at least I don’ think the church is selling indulgences anymore. Are they.....And yet they have the gall to criticize Luther
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amariselle

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This is what Scripture says:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

James is written to saved believers regarding living their faith out in action so that others can see their faith. James does not say we are justified before God by works, but before other people, who cannot see our hearts as God can.

And this is what you believe:

A person is justified by faith alone, and not by works.
You believe the exact opposite of what Scripture states.

We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast.

I believe that.

Amen. I could not agree with you more. But a gift must still be accepted. We disagree on how the gift is accepted.

Indeed we do.

Well it's a good thing that none of us are under the Mosaic law. I am under the law of Christ. Are you?

Absolutely. He is the only hope I have. Nothing I have done, am doing or will do will save me, only Christ's once for all and all sufficient sacrifice for sin will do so.

The law of Christ is a law of grace.

Yes, and grace is entirely unearned and unmerited.

Does God treat his sons as daughters as an exacting judge, or as a merciful and loving father?

He is both the just and the justifier of them that believe in Christ.

And a merciful and loving father does not equate murder and adultery with telling a little white lie at girl's night out.

The wages of sin is death. I have yet to find a list of sins categorized from less severe to most severe. Or a list describing how Jesus died more for some sins than other less serious ones. The problem is that some just do not take sin seriously enough.

Jesus said hate is as murder and looking with lust is as comitting adultery. How high do you think God's standard is?

Simple logic should be enough for you, but in case it is not, here you are:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.​

As Paul was writing to a church of saved believers, what do you think he was referring to?

Nobody here depends on that. Straw man.

If one is depending on their own obedience, they are indeed depending on that.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Notice at his death all that it came of it was that he “kept the faith”..... not “kept the law” or achieved a level of being Full of the Spirit that made him impervious to sin...”The Righteous by faith shall live”... even Paul admitted that he had not achieved to the level he aspired to....unlike some here

The "unlike some here" seems to be referring to me. I've got to tell you, I don't know why some can't relate to my experience of the power of the Holy Spirit. I've only met a few that do. Most don't and are quite hateful. It is baffling, and like Paul is my "thorn in the flesh" lest I get too puffed up by all the miracles and gifts I've been given.
 
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amariselle

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The "unlike some here" seems to be referring to me. I've got to tell you, I don't know why some can't relate to my experience of the power of the Holy Spirit. I've only met a few that do. Most don't and are quite hateful. It is baffling, and like Paul is my "thorn in the flesh" lest I get too puffed up by all the miracles and gifts I've been given.

I haven't seen anyone here deny the power of the Holy Spirit, quite the opposite actually.

What I have seen is a clear recognition (and an echo of what Paul wrote) "in my flesh dwells no good thing." An acknowledgement that the "flesh" wars against the Spirit, and that our only hope for salvation is Christ Jesus.

God bless.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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James is written to saved believers regarding living their faith out in action so that others can see their faith. James does not say we are justified before God by works, but before other people, who cannot see our hearts as God can.





We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast.

I believe that.



Indeed we do.



Absolutely. He is the only hope I have. Nothing I have done, am doing or will do will save me, only Christ's once for all and all sufficient sacrifice for sin will do so.



Yes, and grace is entirely unearned and unmerited.



He is both the just and the justifier of them that believe in Christ.



The wages of sin is death. I have yet to find a list of sins categorized from less severe to most severe. Or a list describing how Jesus died more for some sins than other less serious ones. The problem is that some just do not take sin seriously enough.

Jesus said hate is as murder and looking with lust is as comitting adultery. How high do you think God's standard is?



As Paul was writing to a church of saved believers, what do you think he was referring to?


Test

If one is depending on their own obedience, they are indeed depending on that.
 
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Doug Melven

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It was your analogy pal, so you can spare me the "minimizing what Jesus did" insult.
No, I said "When someone comes to save them", you reduced it to a lifesaver thrown to them.

What is "after death purification"?
I am completely unfamiliar with that term.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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The "unlike some here" seems to be referring to me. I've got to tell you, I don't know why some can't relate to my experience of the power of the Holy Spirit. I've only met a few that do. Most don't and are quite hateful. It is baffling, and like Paul is my "thorn in the flesh" lest I get too puffed up by all the miracles and gifts I've been given.

I hope you don’t think I hate you. I’m just EXASPIRATED! Probably you are too! I am passionate about the need to expose legalism,to me it is a perversion of the Gospel of grace taught by Paul.if one say to me....”Jesus saves B UT...they are verging on legalism...I am not sure if you are a legalists or not....frankly I can’t figure out what the heck you believe.."..I have known “Spiritual show-offs” thatlike to pretend they have achieved a certain level that others have not or cannot a cheive..".I hope that’s is not you
W

T
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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No, I said "When someone comes to save them", you reduced it to a lifesaver thrown to them.

What is "after death purification"?
I am completely unfamiliar with that term.


Just google “purgatory” , pal
 
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PeaceB

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That is hogwash.. purgatory is a PLACE not an after death purification “process” . The purification process involves punishment until YOU, not Jesus are punished to the degree that will make you worthy to enter Heaven.perhaps your church has changed the rules this week or year....but unless your church has changed something...that description is purgatory....i’ll Cut you some slack , pal......at least I don’ think the church is selling indulgences anymore. Are they.....And yet they have the gall to criticize Luther
,
Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
 
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1stcenturylady

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I haven't seen anyone here deny the power of the Holy Spirit, quite the opposite actually.

What I have seen is a clear recognition (and an echo of what Paul wrote) "in my flesh dwells no good thing." An acknowledgement that the "flesh" wars against the Spirit, and that our only hope for salvation is Christ Jesus.

God bless.

I couldn't agree more. So can you tell me why the hostility when I give a testimony?
 
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Doug Melven

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Grace is the power of God to no longer sin. And when there is a large sin committed before Christ, the larger portion of power is needed to overcome that sin. So where sin abounds, grace abounds more.
Very true.
So when a believer sins, grace abounds.
Not, when a believer sins, he is no longer a child of God.
Even when we sin, we can go BOLDLY to the Throne of grace to get help in time of need.
 
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Doug Melven

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1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Jesus did it all, no need for purgatory or after death purification.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I hope you don’t think I hate you. I’m just EXASPIRATED! Probably you are too! I am passionate about the need to expose legalism,to me it is a perversion of the Gospel of grace taught by Paul.if one say to me....”Jesus saves B UT...they are verging on legalism...I am not sure if you are a legalists or not....frankly I can’t figure out what the heck you believe.."..I have known “Spiritual show-offs” thatlike to pretend they have achieved a certain level that others have not or cannot a cheive..".I hope that’s is not you
W

T

Look, I exposes legalism too on the SDA forum. Where the letter of the law kills, the Spirit gives life. Would it make you feel better if the Spirit lead me to sin? Would grace abound more?
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Just google “purgatory” , pal

I googled after death purification and nearly vomited...I could not finish reading it.Hell -Inspired blasphemy.may God have mercy on anyone who believes this doctrine of demons.Do you really believe Paul preached anything like this.it sickens me to even think it.apparently Jesus paid the price for just some of our sins....we must be tormented for the rest or the Saints will not let us enter Heaven.absolutely unbelievable...absolutely unbiblical.PeaceB you seem way to smart to believe this garbage.you have been very badly taught
 
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1stcenturylady

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Very true.
So when a believer sins, grace abounds.
Not, when a believer sins, he is no longer a child of God.
Even when we sin, we can go BOLDLY to the Throne of grace to get help in time of need.

What kind of sins does one commit when they are dead to sin?
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Look, I exposes legalism too on the SDA forum. Where the letter of the law kills, the Spirit gives life. Would it make you feel better if the Spirit lead me to sin? Would grace abound more?


Sure lady that’s what i’m all about...let’s go out and sin up a storm,lead of course by the Holy Spirit...the mind reels...time to shake the dust off my feet....God bless
 
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1stcenturylady

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Sure lady that’s what i’m all about...let’s go out and sin up a storm,lead of course by the Holy Spirit...the mind reels...time to shake the dust off my feet....God bless

God bless
 
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Doug Melven

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What kind of sins does one commit when they are dead to sin?
Whatever kind of sin a believer may have committed where another believer must forgive them. Ephesians 4:30-32
Or maybe whatever sin John was telling the little children in 1 John 2:1-2 not to commit.

Being dead to sin does not that we can't or won't sin. Look in Romans 6 to see how many times Paul tells us to make a choice.
:11 Likewise reckon
:12 Let not
:13 Neither yield
:16 ye yield
:19 even so now yield your
We have choices. ( As a believer I made some terrible choices. Choices that put me in bondage to sin. Eventually the chains manifested into prison and I found myself in shackles and handcuffs. Thanks be to Jesus Christ who reached down and pulled me out of that miry pit.)
Just like we are dead to the law. How many people do you know who still want to live by the law that they are dead to? Romans 7:1-4
 
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PeaceB

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James is written to saved believers regarding living their faith out in action so that others can see their faith. James does not say we are justified before God by works, but before other people, who cannot see our hearts as God can.
No, that is not what James said. This is what James said:

4 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?​

We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast.
Amen.

Absolutely. He is the only hope I have. Nothing I have done, am doing or will do will save me, only Christ's once for all and all sufficient sacrifice for sin will do so.
Uh huh. But you must trust Jesus. That is a verb, no matter how many word games and other semantics you try to play in order to deny the obvious fact that there is a condition for you to be saved. If there were no conditions, then every person on the earth from the believer to the rank atheist would be saved.

The wages of sin is death. I have yet to find a list of sins categorized from less severe to most severe. Or a list describing how Jesus died more for some sins than other less serious ones. The problem is that some just do not take sin seriously enough.

These sins are more serious:

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

And can you please stop with the "nobody takes sin seriously enough" nonsense? Jesus suffered and died because of our sins, and the sins that you and I commit are the reasons why Jesus suffered and died. I take that seriously, OK?

Jesus said hate is as murder and looking with lust is as comitting adultery. How high do you think God's standard is?
Oh, his standards are very high. And so is his mercy towards those who have faith in his son.

As Paul was writing to a church of saved believers, what do you think he was referring to?
I think that John wrote that, and that he was referring to what we call venial sin - sin that does not lead to death.

Now, when St. Paul wrote

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22"​

he was also writing to a church of saved believers, now wasn't he?

And who was he writing about when he wrote:

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.​

And who was the author referring to here:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Could it be in ALL of these instances the author is writing about non-believers? Or is it that you are looking past the obvious fact that believers are included among the people that those verses are directed to, in order to twist the Bible into conforming to your theology of "Once Saved Always Saved"?

If one is depending on their own obedience, they are indeed depending on that.
If I get a chance to speak at my day of judgment, I would like to say "For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on me." You seem to think that people will say "I did and did not do XYZ so I deserve to get in." That is ridiculous. Nobody believes that. And we have explained that to you numerous times. You are arguing against a straw man. It is disingenuous. Please stop it.

No, I said "When someone comes to save them", you reduced it to a lifesaver thrown to them.
Buddy, you created the analogy of someone about to drown at sea, and being needed to be brought to the shore. Now when someone is drowning at sea, they are typically saved by a lifesaver, a boat, etc. I stuck with YOUR analogy. You are being ridiculous in your attempts to slander me. Give it up already. You are being petty.
 
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PeaceB

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Don’t waste your computer ink.too painful to read this clap-trap nonsense.worse than praying to Mary. I bet the real Mary is heart-sick.
How rude. These are the types of statements that people resort to when they have nothing of substance to add.
 
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