Catholics...Why Do Beliefs About Mary Matter?

[Major1]

In response to the OP the straight-up answer is quite clear.

In 1950 the Pope declared four doctrines about Mary to be Catholic dogma. In Catholicism a dogma is a doctrine which must be believed in order to be saved. If a Catholic does not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, her immaculate (sinless) conception, her bodily assumption into heaven, and her status as God's mother.

And the problem with that is not a single one of those dogmas a basis in the Scriptures.

 

[Major1]

I have heard from a Catholic in another thread that Jesus' brothers were actually his cousins. (Really!) I guess the idea that Mary might have sexual desires and give birth to other children (as was the norm in NT days) is abhorrent to some.

That is the only explanation that the RCC could come up with to support their teaching that Mary did not have children after Jesus was born, even though the Scriptures clearly say Jesus's" brothers and sister".

They had to manufacture something to explain away the "Brothers and Sister" in order to validate the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

[Major1]

Of course it matters, as Mary is the source of Jesus' humanity.

For instance, there are indeed some Protestants that think Jesus body was "heavenly" or in some way different from ours. This is a serious heresy. I will state emphatically they worship a different Christ. Because a Christ who is not truly human in every way as we are, save sin, cannot save any of us, any more than a space alien could. We need a hypostatic union between God and humanity, not simply a moral example or a blood sacrifice.

Mary is the locus where the Incarnation happened, her biology is our Savior's biology, indeed it is not wrong to call her the Ark of the New Covenant. It's not wrong to meditate and reflect upon this in terms of theology, as the early Church did at Chalcedon in calling her Theotokos.

Now I have to seriously disagree with your comment.

I ask you to post the book, or the website to prove that their are some Protestants who believe that the Body of Jesus was in some way different that humans or is it something you just thought up to try and prove a personal opinion?.

I have been around for a very long time, and I have never heard some a comment in my life.

If it is something that you say you "Heard" then I can not believe it with out some kind of validation. That would not only be heresy, it would be occultist and anti-Christ.

 

[Major1]

Because they bear on the Incarnation and the nature of God. The theotokos debate of the early church is a good example. The opponents of the theotokos had a poor Christology which showed up in their understanding of Mary. I think the same thing holds with Protestant understandings of depravity and the resulting reflection on God and Mary. Doctrine about Mary always implicates God's relation to Israel, Jesus, and Mary.

Beyond that, don't we have a simple desire to get things right when we are talking about God and Jesus? There is a basic desire for truth and knowledge of God, along with the belief that error will be practically problematic. And doesn't that same desire extend, to a lesser extent, to the Mother of God?

I have problems with your comment of ......
" Doctrine about Mary always implicates God's relation to Israel, Jesus, and Mary."

If that was true, why are the Jews of today still not believing that Jesus is the Messiah? Israel today does not accept Jesus Christ.

Can you validate your comment with the Bible Scriptures for your opinion.

 

[Goatee]

Strange how Major1 dislikes / disagrees with anything Catholic but accepts the Holy Bible that the CC were instrumental in putting together via the Holy Spirit!

You think he would have made his own 'Bible' because of that!

 

[Truth Lover]

Amariselle, this takes a long explanation.

Mary was "spouse" of the Holy Spirit?

Where is this written in Scripture?

Joseph was Mary's "guardian"? (Actually the Bible says she was officially betrothed to him at the time of the angel Gabriel's visit. A prequiste for marriage in Jewish custom).

Consummation is what constitutes a marriage, not the ceremony. Mary gave her consent to it when she said "Be it done to me according to your will." in Luke 2. Her marriage to Joseph was never consummated. Joseph took her into his home and provided for her and Jesus. In the passages that talk about Jesus brothers, these men elsewhere are listed as sons of other men. The word brothers in Aramaic can mean any male relative. Nowhere does it say they were sons of Mary and Joseph.

Mary's sinless conception supports her as the New Eve, just as Jesus is the New Adam. She was created sinless just as Eve was. God started the human race anew through her motherhood.

Again, where does the Bible teach any of this? Scripture does not even speak of Mary's conception at all. It does however share her words confessing her need for a Saviour.

Jesus is the New or Last Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45 "Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:22 also implies this.

I said Mary is the new Eve because that is what Jesus in getting at when he called Mary "woman' at the wedding feat of Cana and in John 19. The word Eve means "woman." The difference is that Mary was obedient whereas Eve was not. In Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Mary's womb bore the seed that will always be at enmity with the Serpent, i.e. Satan.

Mary's "bodily assumption" is also nowhere mentioned in Scripture. It is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, introduced much later.

Also, and most importantly, it directly contradicts the Bible which says that it is Christ's resurrection that assures us God will keep His promise to raise us on the Last Day.

Revelation 12:1a-6(RSVCE) And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The woman in this passage refers to Mary. She could not have a crown of 12 stars if she did not have a body in heaven.

Yes, I do believe in Jesus' promises, but it is comforting to have proof of it in Mary's bodily assumption. One does not exclude the other.

Biblically, this is not correct. Jesus' divinity does not depend upon Mary in any way.

True, Mary did not give birth to Jesus' divine nature.
It is a logical statement. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. In the early centuries, there were people that denied this.

 

[Goatee]

Amariselle, this takes a long explanation.



Consummation is what constitutes a marriage, not the ceremony. Mary gave her consent to it when she said "Be it done to me according to your will." in Luke 2. Her marriage to Joseph was never consummated. Joseph took her into his home and provided for her and Jesus. In the passages that talk about Jesus brothers, these men elsewhere are listed as sons of other men. The word brothers in Aramaic can mean any male relative. Nowhere does it say they were sons of Mary and Joseph.





Jesus is the New or Last Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45 "Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:22 also implies this.

I sais Mary is the new Eve because that is what Jeus in getting at when he called Mary "woman' at the wedding feat of Cana and in John 19. The word Eve means "woman." The difference is that Mary was obedient whereas Eve was not. In Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Mary's womb bore the seed that will slways be at emnity with the Serpent, i.e. Satan.



Revelation 12:1a-6(RSVCE) And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The woman in this passage refers to Mary. She could not have a crown of 12 stars if she did not have a body in heaven.



True, Mary did not give birth to Jesus' divine nature.
It is a logical statement. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.

Well said.

I agree 100% with what you posted.

Major1 will 'always' disagree as he is a sola scripture guy who only goes by 'literal' reading of the Bible (when it suits). He is stuck with his own interpretations which only he believes.

 

[concretecamper]

Explain the term......"Divinely revealed".

From God

 

[Major1]

Amariselle, this takes a long explanation.



Consummation is what constitutes a marriage, not the ceremony. Mary gave her consent to it when she said "Be it done to me according to your will." in Luke 2. Her marriage to Joseph was never consummated. Joseph took her into his home and provided for her and Jesus. In the passages that talk about Jesus brothers, these men elsewhere are listed as sons of other men. The word brothers in Aramaic can mean any male relative. Nowhere does it say they were sons of Mary and Joseph.





Jesus is the New or Last Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45 "Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:22 also implies this.

I said Mary is the new Eve because that is what Jesus in getting at when he called Mary "woman' at the wedding feat of Cana and in John 19. The word Eve means "woman." The difference is that Mary was obedient whereas Eve was not. In Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Mary's womb bore the seed that will always be at enmity with the Serpent, i.e. Satan.



Revelation 12:1a-6(RSVCE) And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The woman in this passage refers to Mary. She could not have a crown of 12 stars if she did not have a body in heaven.

Yes, I do believe in Jesus' promises, but it is comforting to have proof of it in Mary's bodily assumption. One does not exclude the other.



True, Mary did not give birth to Jesus' divine nature.
It is a logical statement. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. In the early centuries, there were people that denied this.

Incorrect!

Rev. 12:1 is NOT Mary but is instead Israel. There are NO Scriptures with say that MAry was comforted for 1260 days in Egypt!

Where in the Scriptures and when did Mary, the mother of Jesus, sprout wings and fly out into the desert for her own protection?

If the Catholic church literally interprets Rev. 12:1-5 to portray Mary as the woman clothed in the sun in glorious splendor standing on the moon with twelve stars on her head as though she is Queen, then they will have also picture her with two eagle wings as she is also described as having! You can not have it both ways!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe this is why the Catholic church only refers to the first part of Rev. chapter 12, but not the latter end (verses 13 and 14) which also describes this symbolic woman.

On the other hand, if we understand the woman clothed with the sun to be symbolic of Israel, then we have the nation of Israel fleeing into the desert for 1,260 days to get away from the devil at the end of this age.

This would also fit the symbolic interpretation of a crown with twelve stars on her head as seen in Gen. 37:9-10............
Then he [Joseph] had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"

The cult of the Mother Goddess entered the Christian Church in typically Christian categories, such as the Ecclesia [church], represented as the spiritual mother of Christians, or as "the Second Eve," whose divine motherhood is responsible for mankind's rebirth. The cult of the Mother Goddess entered the Christian Church in typically Christian categories, such as the Ecclesia [church], represented as the spiritual mother of Christians, or as "the Second Eve," whose divine motherhood is responsible for mankind's rebirth.

 

[Major1]

From God

That is what I thought. So the answer is .....There are NO Bible verses that validate your opinion.
It therefore remains YOUR opinion and we all have one of those.

 

[Truth Lover]

Major1

The real and the only reason it is wrong to call her the Ark of the New Test. and to think that she is sinless and went to heaven body and spirit is because the Scriptures do not say that.

Consider this:

John implies that Mary is the ark of the covenant in Revelation 11:19, Rev 12:1a-6(RSVCE) "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days." The ark John saw was Mary.
Consider this also:
Luke 1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40 and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth said, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Like the ark, Mary went to the hill country just as the Ark was brought to Jerusalem in 1 Samuel 6. In 1 Samuel 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” The Ark was so holy that it could not be touched. This prefigures Mary's sinlessness.

Hebrews 9:4 states that the Ark contained "the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant."

Like the Ark, Mary carried in her womb the Word of God (John 1), the bread of life (John 6) and the maker of the New Covenant (Matt 26:26-29).
This is a typological interpretation of how the Ark prefigured Mary giving birth to our savior.

 

[concretecamper]

Haha....you asked me a question, I gave you an answer, and then you go off on me not providing bible verses.....you can't make this nonsense up.

 

[concretecamper]

.

 

[amariselle]

Amariselle, this takes a long explanation.

Consummation is what constitutes a marriage, not the ceremony. Mary gave her consent to it when she said "Be it done to me according to your will." in Luke 2. Her marriage to Joseph was never consummated. Joseph took her into his home and provided for her and Jesus. In the passages that talk about Jesus brothers, these men elsewhere are listed as sons of other men. The word brothers in Aramaic can mean any male relative. Nowhere does it say they were sons of Mary and Joseph.

I understand that whether or not Mary had other children with Joseph is a huge debate. Whether she did or did not, however, does not lead to the conclusion that she didn't have a marriage to Joseph that was, sometime after Jesus' birth, consummated. Here is Scripture that indicates it was:

"Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus." - Matthew 10:24-25

The truth is, we have no Biblical reason to believe that Joseph was simply Mary's "gaurdian" and not her husband in every sense of the word.

Nor do we have any Biblical reason to support the claim that Mary's faith and humbling of herself in obedience to God's will as revealed to her by the angel Gabriel, meant that she somehow became the "spouse" of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, although I know we cannot understand the entirely of Jesus' conception, I think it is very dangerous to make the leap that there was some kind of "consummation" between her and the Holy Spirit. Remember, God is able to create outside of the bounds of the natural laws He's set forth in the world.

I see Mary's acknowledgment of God's will as further proof of her faith and obedience (from faith) to God. That does not mean that all the unbiblical doctrines regarding her should be accepted.

The veneration she is given in the Catholic Church far surpasses anything Biblical or even anything that (from what we know of her in Scripture) she would ever seek for herself.

And certainly neither Jesus, nor any of the apostles ever singled her out or elevated her in the way the Catholic Church does, not even when she was alive and still with them.

Jesus is the New or Last Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45 "Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:22 also implies this.

I said Mary is the new Eve because that is what Jesus in getting at when he called Mary "woman' at the wedding feat of Cana and in John 19. The word Eve means "woman." The difference is that Mary was obedient whereas Eve was not. In Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Mary's womb bore the seed that will always be at enmity with the Serpent, i.e. Satan.

I have no doubt that God chose Mary for a special part in His plan. However, the focus of Scripture is always on the Messiah, not on the woman who will be chosen as His mother.

Revelation 12:1a-6(RSVCE) And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The woman in this passage refers to Mary. She could not have a crown of 12 stars if she did not have a body in heaven.

There is, as you know, much debate about the imagery in Revelation and what it truly means.

Regardless, this does not clearly support the claim that Mary did not die, but was taken to heaven. Those teachings came about much later.

Yes, I do believe in Jesus' promises, but it is comforting to have proof of it in Mary's bodily assumption. One does not exclude the other.

I think it is important to remember that our hope is in Christ. It is His resurrection from the dead that provides "proof."

True, Mary did not give birth to Jesus' divine nature.
It is a logical statement. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. In the early centuries, there were people that denied this.

Mary was the mother of Jesus in His human form (earthly body). She was not the "mother of God." God has no mother and Mary was His creation, just as we all are.

 

[amariselle]

Major1

Consider this:

John implies that Mary is the ark of the covenant in Revelation 11:19, Rev 12:1a-6(RSVCE) "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days." The ark John saw was Mary.
Consider this also:
Luke 1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40 and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth said, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Like the ark, Mary went to the hill country just as the Ark was brought to Jerusalem in 1 Samuel 6. In 1 Samuel 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” The Ark was so holy that it could not be touched. This prefigures Mary's sinlessness.

Hebrews 9:4 states that the Ark contained "the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant."

Like the Ark, Mary carried in her womb the Word of God (John 1), the bread of life (John 6) and the maker of the New Covenant (Matt 26:26-29).
This is a typological interpretation of how the Ark prefigured Mary giving birth to our savior.

Those who wish to venerate Mary and put her up on a pedestal as the Catholic Church has done, should heed these words from Jesus:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." - Luke 11:27-28

Right there was the perfect opportunity for Jesus to confirm the rightness of this woman's statement in calling Mary blessed because of her role as Jesus' mother.

So, did Jesus support and agree with her words? Did He say, "yes, blessed is my Holy Virgin mother, above all women, you are right to honour her"?

No, instead Jesus corrected her and said that it is those who "hear the word of God and keep it" who are blessed. Now, there is every reason to believe Mary was absolutely among the believers, but Jesus was clear that there was no reason she should be honoured above any other believer. We are all blessed through faith in Christ, brothers and sisters.

Consider these verses as well:

"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Then one said unto him, 'Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.'

But he answered and said unto him that told him, 'Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?'

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, 'Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.'" - Matthew 12:46-50

Again, a perfect opportunity for Jesus to have brought Mary to Him to present her as His "Holy Virgin mother." He could have used this opportunity to teach all who were listening and all who would later read His words how Mary should be venerated and prayed to.

Did He do that?

No. Instead He confirmed once again that it is all who believe in Him (which is the will of the Father) that are His brother, sister, and mother.

 

[Truth Lover]

In Jesus' answer in Luke 11:27-28, "He did not disgrace His mother, but showed that His birth would have profited her nothing, had she not been really fruitful in works and faith." - St. Chrysostom
It simply means that Mary is blessed not only for bearing the flesh of Christ, but most of all because she heard the word of God and obeyed it. Rather the blessedness of Mary (Luke 1:48) is because of her Fiat.

 

[Fidelibus]

You just referred to Scripture that references these events, therefore it is because of Scripture I believe they occurred, not because of "Sacred Tradition."

You know Amariselle, I have been enjoying our discussions, but it has to have some sort of structure. Like, you ask me a question or two, and I answer, then I ask you a question or two and you answer. I my last few posts, I've ask you some very important questions and you completely ignore them. (something Major1 in famous for, thats why I dont even bother reading his posts any longer, much less address them.). For example, back on post #114 you stated:

Of course she's blessed, but she was not sinless. (And I do not agree with the veneration she is given in the Catholic Church, because such honour belongs to God alone).

And I replyed..." Really? do/did you not honor your Mother and Father as the Commandments instrust us to do?
Do you think Jesus broke the commandment by not honoring His mother?
Do you think Jesus honored Mary and Joseph?
Did Jesus love His mother?"
Now Amariselle, I beleive these to be very legidimate questions being you say such honor belongs to God alone, whereas the Commandments command us to honor our mother' and fathers. How do you explain that?
Now as for you first quote above, you missed my point entirely.The point I was making was in reguards to your belief of sola scriptura. The Protestant belief that everything one needs to know for a sole rule of faith, and every word Jesus spoke can be found within the pages of the bible. This is your belief, correct? If not, please correct me where I am in error. If I am correct, let me continue.
Again, in Acts 20:35, St Paul say's..."In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive."
And in the book of Jude 1:9 it says..."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
You are correct to say I referred to Scripture that references these events. However, Acts 20:35 is quoting St.Paul repeating Jesus' words, not Jesus actually saying them. So the question I asked was, using your bible alone, could you show the chapter and verse where it is written where "Jesus said"......... "It is more blessed to give than to receive."
As for Jude 1:9. Again, using your bible alone doctrine, could you show from the Old Testament (chapter/verse) where this dispute between the Archangel Michael and Satan over Moses' body is to be found?
I will address the rest of the examples where you believe Sacred Traditions contradicts/goes against the Bible. One at a time that is. I do apologize though for asking more than a couple of questions this time within a single post. From here on out I will limit it to one or two. Thank you for your responce in advance.

 

[amariselle]

In Jesus' answer in Luke 11:27-28, "He did not disgrace His mother, but showed that His birth would have profited her nothing, had she not been really fruitful in works and faith." - St. Chrysostom
It simply means that Mary is blessed not only for bearing the flesh of Christ, but most of all because she heard the word of God and obeyed it. Rather the blessedness of Mary (Luke 1:48) is because of her Fiat.

Actually, Jesus was not speaking specifically/only about Mary in these verses at all, but about all who would trust and believe on Him.

He didn't say "blessed is my mother Mary", He said "blessed are they."

The point is, that He was clear that all those who believe on Him are blessed. There should be no elevating any one person above any other, (as is clear in multiple other Scriptures as well).

 

[amariselle]

You know Amariselle, I have been enjoying our discussions, but it has to have some sort of structure. Like, you ask me a question or two, and I answer, then I ask you a question or two and you answer.

I believe there has been plenty of "structure", but if you don't, that's fair enough.

I my last few posts, I've ask you some very important questions and you completely ignore them. (something Major1 in famous for, thats why I dont even bother reading his posts any longer, much less address them.). For example, back on post #114 you stated:

I'm sorry you feel that way, you have put a lot of questions in a single post. I apologize if I have not answered each and every one. As is illustrated in the following: (which I will now be sure to answer specifically.)

And I replyed..." Really? do/did you not honor your Mother and Father as the Commandments instrust us to do?

Do I try to? Yes. Have I always done so perfectly? No.

Do you think Jesus broke the commandment by not honoring His mother?

Absolutely not. Jesus broke no commandments and was entirely without sin. Scripture is clear on this.

Do you think Jesus honored Mary and Joseph?

Yes.

Did Jesus love His mother?"

Yes.

Now Amariselle, I beleive these to be very legidimate questions being you say such honor belongs to God alone, whereas the Commandments command us to honor our mother' and fathers. How do you explain that?

Simple. There is the honour and respect that we are to give our parents, and there is the worship and praise we are to give to God alone.

Unfortunately, what the Catholic Church has done in regards to Mary is to put her on a pedestal and venerate and honour her in entirely unbiblical ways. (For instance, claiming she is a mediator between Jesus and mankind, when the Bible is clear that we have ONE Mediator, Jesus Christ.)

Now as for you first quote above, you missed my point entirely.The point I was making was in reguards to your belief of sola scriptura. The Protestant belief that everything one needs to know for a sole rule of faith, and every word Jesus spoke can be found within the pages of the bible. This is your belief, correct?

Actually, no. I do not believe everything Jesus said (or did) is recorded in Scripture. Besides that being completely illogical, since He lived about 33 years or so on earth, here's why:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." - John 21:25

Many people use the above verse to argue for all sorts of unbiblical teachings that contradict God's word. I believe Jesus obviously said and did many many things not recorded in Scripture, but none of those things would have contradicted what we know He said and did by what we are given to know in Scripture. God does not contradict Himself.

If not, please correct me where I am in error. If I am correct, let me continue.
Again, in Acts 20:35, St Paul say's..."In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive."
And in the book of Jude 1:9 it says..."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
You are correct to say I referred to Scripture that references these events. However, Acts 20:35 is quoting St.Paul repeating Jesus' words, not Jesus actually saying them. So the question I asked was, using your bible alone, could you show the chapter and verse where it is written where "Jesus said"......... "It is more blessed to give than to receive."

I believe this fits right in with the verse I shared above, about Jesus doing more than what is recorded. The point is, we do have this statement recorded in Scripture as well, and I'm sure you will agree it does not contradict anything Jesus is recorded as saying in the Gospels.

So, this objection does not interfere with "Sola Scriptura" in the least.

As for Jude 1:9. Again, using your bible alone doctrine, could you show from the Old Testament (chapter/verse) where this dispute between the Archangel Michael and Satan over Moses' body is to be found?

Again, the only reason I would ever believe that such a dispute took place is precisely because it is written in Scripture. How else would we know it actually happened? Honestly, there is no doubt so much that has happened throughout history that we have no idea of, but God is faithful, and what we need to know, He has revealed to us in His word.

I will address the rest of the examples where you believe Sacred Traditions contradicts/goes against the Bible. One at a time that is. I do apologize though for asking more than a couple of questions this time within a single post. From here on out I will limit it to one or two. Thank you for your responce in advance.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God bless.

 

[PeaceB]

Those who wish to venerate Mary and put her up on a pedestal as the Catholic Church has done, should heed these words from Jesus:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." - Luke 11:27-28

Right there was the perfect opportunity for Jesus to confirm the rightness of this woman's statement in calling Mary blessed because of her role as Jesus' mother.

So, did Jesus support and agree with her words? Did He say, "yes, blessed is my Holy Virgin mother, above all women, you are right to honour her"?

No, instead Jesus corrected her and said that it is those who "hear the word of God and keep it" who are blessed. Now, there is every reason to believe Mary was absolutely among the believers, but Jesus was clear that there was no reason she should be honoured above any other believer. We are all blessed through faith in Christ, brothers and sisters.

Consider these verses as well:

"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Then one said unto him, 'Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.'

But he answered and said unto him that told him, 'Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?'

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, 'Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.'" - Matthew 12:46-50

Again, a perfect opportunity for Jesus to have brought Mary to Him to present her as His "Holy Virgin mother." He could have used this opportunity to teach all who were listening and all who would later read His words how Mary should be venerated and prayed to.

Did He do that?

No. Instead He confirmed once again that it is all who believe in Him (which is the will of the Father) that are His brother, sister, and mother.

That is an interesting take on it, but I would not necessarily view Luke 11:27-28 as Jesus teaching that Mary is not a woman who is blessed among women, or that it is wrong for people to believe that. I would read it as Jesus trying to teach the particular person something in addition to what she said.

Let's take a look at Luke 1:
39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, 40 and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would beg a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”

Above, you will note that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she said "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!"

So I think it is reasonable to conclude that it is a good thing for people to call Mary blessed among women, because the Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to do just that, and the Holy Spirit only inspires people to do what is good.

You also have the Magnificat:
46 And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.

Here, Mary and Scripture testify that generations forever will call Mary blessed. Scripture does not say that generations will call you and me blessed (even though we are). God seems to bless some his creatures more than others, but we are all blessed and loved by God.