Catholics...Why Do Beliefs About Mary Matter?

[Fidelibus]

I've actually been to quite a few Masses myself, in different locations. The "Hail Mary" always bothered me, the turning toward her "image" to pray it bothered me even more.

Ever since my conversion to Catholicism a few years back, not once have I heard the Hail Mary prayer being recited. Our Blessed Mother may be mentioned in the prayers to the faithful, , but never has the Hail Mary been recited at any Mass I've attended.. For example, here are tomorrorws readings (7-23-17) at every Mass, at every Catholic Church, parish, Mission, or chapel, in every city, town or village throughout all of the world in the Sixteenth Sunday in Ordinary Time.
First Reading: Wisdom 12:13, 16-19.
Responsorial Psalm: Psalm 86: 5-6, 9-10, 15-16.
Second Reading: Romans 8: 26-27.
The Alleluia: Matt. 11:25.
Gospel: Matt. 13: 24-43.
Readings from Scripture are part of every Mass. At least two readings, one always from the Gospels, (3 on Sundays and solemnities) make up the Liturgy of the Word. In addition, a psalm or canticle is sung. In a three year cycle, the entire Bible is read at Mass. This unity in the Catholic Faith (something I never found in all the differnt Protestant/non-Denominational churches I attended) is one of the main reasons of my conversion to Catholicism. Praise be to God!

The Bible says we have One redeemer, one Saviour and that is not Mary, that is Jesus Christ.

And the Catholic Church agrees. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the one savior of the world. I believe author Ginny Kubitz Moyer explains it best.

You will sometimes hear people say that Catholics believe that Mary is the "co-redemptrix." There is a lot of misinformation around that, so here’s a quick explanation.
Over the last several years, many Catholics around the world have signed petitions urging the Pope to make a dogmatic declaration that Mary is the "co-redemptrix." They feel that this title will emphasize the unique and irreplaceable role that Mary played in the salvation of the world: namely, conceiving, giving birth to, and supporting Jesus in his mission. They do clarify (correctly) that she is subordinate to her Son, and that Jesus is the one and only Redeemer. So when they say "co-", they don’t mean "on equal footing with"; rather, they mean that she played a unique part in helping Jesus do his work of salvation.

What they say here is, in fact, nothing new. The Church has consistently taught that as the mother of Jesus, Mary did play a very unique and essential role in bringing the Savior into the world. At Vatican II, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church affirmed as much, saying, "[Mary] conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the father in the temple, and was united with him by compassion as he died on the cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in giving back supernatural life to souls." ( Lumen Gentium 61; italics mine). In other words, no one else played the part that she did in bringing Christ into the world so he could save us. At the same time, the Church teaches that she is always subordinate to her son. As the Dogmatic Constiuation on the Church states a few lines later, "No creature could ever be counted as equal with the incarnate Word and Redeemer." (Lumen Gentium 62)
What is problematic to many both inside and outside the Church is that the very title "co-redemptrix" invites misunderstanding. It seems to put Mary on the same level as Christ (she isn’t), and seems to imply that she is divine (she isn’t). Those who are critical of the title also worry about its impact on ecumenical efforts with other Christian churches.
And in spite of the petitions signed by those who support the title of co-redemptrix, no pope has ever made a dogmatic declaration to formalize the title and make it official.

As this shows, always take with a grain of salt what an anti-Catholic pastor may be teaching about in the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I suggest going directly to the source for the truth, as I did.

 

[Albion]

As always, it's not what people say they are doing, it's what they actually do that matters.

 

[Fidelibus]

Actually, I think Scripture is very clear regarding personal accountability before God. I stand by what I said, however, that God in His righteous judgement is the one Who, knowing all things, determines to what extent those who perhaps cannot (through no fault of their own) turn to Him through faith in Christ Jesus.

I take it you adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. (The bible alone being sufficient as a sole rule of faith, which I too used to believe, until the Holy Spirit showed me the truth of it being unbiblical) If so, you should have no problem posting the chapter and verse that says God in His perfect righteousness, knows who is accountable, and who cannot be in regard to thier inability to understand, accept Him,,,,,, when it come to babies (born and unborn) or the mentally challenged. Thank you in advance.

Also, not one bit of what I said makes any case for Mary being sinless. That belief is simply not supported by Scripture anywhere, and is in fact contradicted by her own words.

Can you show 'anyhwere' in Scripture that says she (Mary) herself actually sinned?

And yes, you needn't be concerned that I consider unborn children not to be human beings. I believe the Bible is clear that they are.

Thats great to here, but I have to ask, do you walk the walk in peaceful, prayerful protest outside of abortion clinics along side of we Catholics? Or do you just talk the talk? I am hoping you are joining us.

 

[amariselle]

Ever since my conversion to Catholicism a few years back, not once have I heard the Hail Mary prayer being recited. Our Blessed Mother may be mentioned in the prayers to the faithful, , but never has the Hail Mary been recited at any Mass I've attended.. For example, here are tomorrorws readings (7-23-17) at every Mass, at every Catholic Church, parish, Mission, or chapel, in every city, town or village throughout all of the world in the Sixteenth Sunday in Ordinary Time.
First Reading: Wisdom 12:13, 16-19.
Responsorial Psalm: Psalm 86: 5-6, 9-10, 15-16.
Second Reading: Romans 8: 26-27.
The Alleluia: Matt. 11:25.
Gospel: Matt. 13: 24-43.
Readings from Scripture are part of every Mass. At least two readings, one always from the Gospels, (3 on Sundays and solemnities) make up the Liturgy of the Word. In addition, a psalm or canticle is sung. In a three year cycle, the entire Bible is read at Mass. This unity in the Catholic Faith (something I never found in all the differnt Protestant/non-Denominational churches I attended) is one of the main reasons of my conversion to Catholicism. Praise be to God!

It's odd that you've never heard the "Hail Mary" recited. I certainly did, many times. I thought the Catholic Church was more structured in regard to its services.

And the Catholic Church agrees. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the one savior of the world. I believe author Ginny Kubitz Moyer explains it best.

That quote only highlights and confirms the very real problems and concerns with giving Mary titles such a "co-redeemer", "Queen of Heaven" etc.

Also, it is completely false (in light of Scripture) to suggest that Mary conceived Jesus. She did not. His conception was the work of the Holy Spirit by the will of God.

As this shows, always take with a grain of salt what an anti-Catholic pastor may be teaching about in the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I suggest going directly to the source for the truth, as I did.

If you read my post again, you will see that I did in fact "go directly to the source for the truth."

As I said, I attended many Catholic Masses, and the "Hail Mary" was said quite often, and the Priest and congregation did in fact turn to face a statue of her as they recited it.

I've also done, and continue to do a lot of research into the history and doctrines of the Catholic Church. It's of special interest to me since my maternal grandparents and great grandparents were Catholic and my mother was raised Catholic (her sister, my aunt, was also a nun for about 15 years)

 

[amariselle]

I take it you adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. (The bible alone being sufficient as a sole rule of faith, which I too used to believe, until the Holy Spirit showed me the truth of it being unbiblical)

In what way is trusting in God's word above the teachings and traditions of men "unbiblical"?

If so, you should have no problem posting the chapter and verse that says God in His perfect righteousness, knows who is accountable, and who cannot be in regard to thier inability to understand, accept Him,,,,,, when it come to babies (born and unborn) or the mentally challenged. Thank you in advance.

The entirely of Scripture makes this clear. Read from Genesis onwards. God created Adam and Eve (and all mankind) in His image. Relational, human beings with free will and the ability to either obey or disobey the Lord.

The Bible also contains verse after verse regarding God, His perfect righteousness, how nothing is hidden from Him and how, unlike man, he looks not at the outward appearance, but at the heart.

It is our falling short of His righteousness that leaves us lost and hopeless without a Saviour. The Bible points to Christ from beginning to end.

Can you show 'anyhwere' in Scripture that says she (Mary) herself actually sinned?

Here are her own recorded words after the visitation of the angel Gabriel, when she went to visit Elizabeth:

"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." - Luke 1:46-48

Only sinners need a Saviour. Also, the Bible is clear that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All people, this includes Mary.

Thats great to here, but I have to ask, do you walk the walk in peaceful, prayerful protest outside of abortion clinics along side of we Catholics? Or do you just talk the talk? I am hoping you are joining us.

Going to abortion clinics is the only way to protest abortion?

Also, you no doubt know that there are many non-Catholics who protest abortion as well. It is not only Catholics that do so.

 

[Albion]

Can you show 'anyhwere' in Scripture that says she (Mary) herself actually sinned?

She herself said that she needed a Savior. That pretty much cinches it unless we're supposed to believe that the Bible records her error without comment.

 

[Truth Lover]

In response to the original question, these are my thoughts.

In response to the OP the straight-up answer is quite clear.

In 1950 the Pope declared four doctrines about Mary to be Catholic dogma. In Catholicism a dogma is a doctrine which must be believed in order to be saved. If a Catholic does not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, her immaculate (sinless) conception, her bodily assumption into heaven, and her status as God's mother.

1. Mary's perpetual virginity supports Mary as "spouse" of the Holy Spirit by whose power she conceived Jesus. Tradition says that she was pledged to virginity from birth, like Samuel was. Joseph was her guardian.
2. Mary's sinless conception supports her as the New Eve, just as Jesus is the New Adam. She was created sinless just as Eve was. God started the human race anew through her motherhood.
3. Mary's bodily assumption is proof that God will keep his promise to us of the resurrection of our bodies on the Last Day.
4. If Mary is not the mother of God, then that is saying that Jesus is not God.
If you get it wrong about Mary, then you get it wrong about Jesus.

 

[Albion]

In response to the original question, these are my thoughts.


1. Mary's perpetual virginity supports Mary as "spouse" of the Holy Spirit by whose power she conceived Jesus. Tradition says that she was pledged to virginity from birth, like Samuel was. Joseph was her guardian.

In other words, there's a legend to this effect. You are not speaking of Holy Tradition, a supposed second source of revelation in addition to the Bible that the church refers to in order to determine doctrine. You're just speaking of custom, folklore.

2. Mary's sinless conception supports her as the New Eve, just as Jesus is the New Adam. She was created sinless just as Eve was. God started the human race anew through her motherhood.

Mary was unlike Eve (prior to the Fall) in more ways than she was like her. There is only speculation in your point here.

3. Mary's bodily assumption is proof that God will keep his promise to us of the resurrection of our bodies on the Last Day.

IF Mary had been assumed bodily. There is not a shred of evidence from Scripture that she was. And the story does not date from the start of the church, which makes it neither Apostolic nor something believed everywhere, always, and by all (Christians).

4. If Mary is not the mother of God, then that is saying that Jesus is not God.
If you get it wrong about Mary, then you get it wrong about Jesus.

Mary is the mother of Jesus. That does not in any way make her a Perpetual Virgin, Immaculately Conceived, or any of that.

 

[Fidelibus]

It's odd that you've never heard the "Hail Mary" recited. I certainly did, many times.

When was this? Was it at a funeral? And would you be willing to share which Church (parish) city or state/ country you heard this in so I could verify it with the Pastor?

I thought the Catholic Church was more structured in regard to its services.

Did you not read where I posted on any day, the same readings are read at every Mass, at every Catholic Church, parish, Mission, or chapel, in every city, town or village throughout all of the world? Sounds pretty structerd to me! Can you show any Protestant or non-Denomanatinal sect that can say the same? Of couse you can't, this is why I left the dis-unity of them and coverted to the unity of Catholicism.

That quote only highlights and confirms the very real problems and concerns with giving Mary titles such a "co-redeemer", "Queen of Heaven" etc.

Did you not read where the quotes says that she is "subordinate" to her Son, and that "Jesus is the one and only Redeemer?" And where it said when they say "co-", they don’t mean "on equal footing with"; rather, they mean that she played a unique part in helping Jesus do his work of salvation? Or the part that said..."the Church teaches as the Dogmatic Constiuation on the Church states a few lines later, "No creature could ever be counted as equal with the incarnate Word and Redeemer." (Lumen Gentium 62)?" Or, once again, the part that said... "What is problematic to many both inside and outside the Church is that the very title "co-redemptrix" invites misunderstanding. It seems to put Mary on the same level as Christ (she isn’t), and seems to imply that she is divine (she isn’t). Those who are critical of the title also worry about its impact on ecumenical efforts with other Christian churches.And in spite of the petitions signed by those who support the title of co-redemptrix, no pope has ever made a dogmatic declaration to formalize the title and make it official?" Can you show where any of these statements puts Mary at the same level as God?

Also, it is completely false (in light of Scripture) to suggest that Mary conceived Jesus.

Say's who? Besides, can I ask who conceived you?

His conception was the work of the Holy Spirit by the will of God.

And in your research into the history and doctrines of the Catholic Church, where does the teaching of the Catholic Church differ?

If you read my post again, you will see that I did in fact "go directly to the source for the truth."

Sorry, My eyes must have failed me again, could you give me the post number?

As I said, I attended many Catholic Masses, and the "Hail Mary" was said quite often, and the Priest and congregation did in fact turn to face a statue of her as they recited it.

Again, could you reveal the city, state, church, date (approx) when this happened to verify it?

I've also done, and continue to do a lot of research into the history and doctrines of the Catholic Church.

You mean like the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or an official Vatican web-site? If these are not your sources, could you please reveal where you go for this research? No offence, but some of your answers have me to question your sources.

It's of special interest to me since my maternal grandparents and great grandparents were Catholic and my mother was raised Catholic (her sister, my aunt, was also a nun for about 15 years)

What Order was your Aunt in?

 

[amariselle]

In response to the original question, these are my thoughts.

1. Mary's perpetual virginity supports Mary as "spouse" of the Holy Spirit by whose power she conceived Jesus. Tradition says that she was pledged to virginity from birth, like Samuel was. Joseph was her guardian.

Mary was "spouse" of the Holy Spirit?

Where is this written in Scripture?

Joseph was Mary's "guardian"? (Actually the Bible says she was officially betrothed to him at the time of the angel Gabriel's visit. A prequiste for marriage in Jewish custom).

2. Mary's sinless conception supports her as the New Eve, just as Jesus is the New Adam. She was created sinless just as Eve was. God started the human race anew through her motherhood.

Again, where does the Bible teach any of this? Scripture does not even speak of Mary's conception at all. It does however share her words confessing her need for a Saviour.

3. Mary's bodily assumption is proof that God will keep his promise to us of the resurrection of our bodies on the Last Day.

Mary's "bodily assumption" is also nowhere mentioned in Scripture. It is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, introduced much later.

Also, and most importantly, it directly contradicts the Bible which says that it is Christ's resurrection that assures us God will keep His promise to raise us on the Last Day.

4. If Mary is not the mother of God, then that is saying that Jesus is not God.
If you get it wrong about Mary, then you get it wrong about Jesus.

Biblically, this is not correct. Jesus' divinity does not depend upon Mary in any way.

 

[amariselle]

When was this? Was it at a funeral? And would you be willing to share which Church (parish) city or state/ country you heard this in so I could verify it with the Pastor?

Did you not read where I posted on any day, the same readings are read at every Mass, at every Catholic Church, parish, Mission, or chapel, in every city, town or village throughout all of the world? Sounds pretty structerd to me! Can you show any Protestant or non-Denomanatinal sect that can say the same? Of couse you can't, this is why I left the dis-unity of them and coverted to the unity of Catholicism.

Did you not read where the quotes says that she is "subordinate" to her Son, and that "Jesus is the one and only Redeemer?" And where it said when they say "co-", they don’t mean "on equal footing with"; rather, they mean that she played a unique part in helping Jesus do his work of salvation? Or the part that said..."the Church teaches as the Dogmatic Constiuation on the Church states a few lines later, "No creature could ever be counted as equal with the incarnate Word and Redeemer." (Lumen Gentium 62)?" Or, once again, the part that said... "What is problematic to many both inside and outside the Church is that the very title "co-redemptrix" invites misunderstanding. It seems to put Mary on the same level as Christ (she isn’t), and seems to imply that she is divine (she isn’t). Those who are critical of the title also worry about its impact on ecumenical efforts with other Christian churches.And in spite of the petitions signed by those who support the title of co-redemptrix, no pope has ever made a dogmatic declaration to formalize the title and make it official?" Can you show where any of these statements puts Mary at the same level as God?

Say's who? Besides, can I ask who conceived you?

And in your research into the history and doctrines of the Catholic Church, where does the teaching of the Catholic Church differ?

Sorry, My eyes must have failed me again, could you give me the post number?

Again, could you reveal the city, state, church, date (approx) when this happened to verify it?

You mean like the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or an official Vatican web-site? If these are not your sources, could you please reveal where you go for this research? No offence, but some of your answers have me to question your sources.

What Order was your Aunt in?

Sorry, I'm not willing to give out personal information on a public forum.

And yes, I have indeed read from the Catechism and official Vatican sources as well as Catholic historians.

 

[Fidelibus]

In what way is trusting in God's word above the teachings and traditions of men "unbiblical"?

Who ever said that Sacred Traditions are put "above" Sacred Scripture? They are of equal value! Remember, Like you, I too beleived the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. Again, like you I believed the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God. (p.s. the word 'bible' is nowhere to be found in Scripture)
That is of course until the Holy Spirit helped me to see the truth and recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The Holy Spirit revealed to me that the true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. (i.e. Sola Scriptura is unbiblical and is in its self places it's confidence in Martin Luther’s man-made theory of sola scriptura.)
Now if you are anything like I was, when I heard this from Catholics disputing the "bible Alone" Therory, these two passages; Jn.20:31 "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name", and 2 Tim.3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work". came out as my defence of sola scriptura. However, as I came to learn, nowwhere in these passages does it state that the bible alone is 'sufficient' as a sole rule of faith. As a matter of fact, the New Testament was not fully written when these words were uttered. So in all actuality, to use these passages means you adhere to Sola Scriptura Old Testament only....... as I once did

.The entirely of Scripture makes this clear. Read from Genesis onwards. God created Adam and Eve (and all mankind) in His image. Relational, human beings with free will and the ability to either obey or disobey the Lord.

Including babies and the mentaly challenged?

The Bible also contains verse after verse regarding God, His perfect righteousness, how nothing is hidden from Him and how, unlike man, he looks not at the outward appearance, but at the heart.

Again, you have yet showed a single chapter and verse that says God in His perfect righteousness, knows who is accountable, and who cannot be in regard to thier inability to understand, accept Him,,,,,, when it come to babies (born and unborn) or the mentally challenged. I am asking about a specific chapter and verse. As a sola scripturists, surely you could find it.

For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." - Luke 1:46-48

I was quite impressed you posted this passage, most non-Catholics tend to ignore it. I can never remember once as Protestant ever hearing this passage being preached upon. Have you? And do you? (call her Blessed?)

Only sinners need a Saviour. Also, the Bible is clear that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So when you high-lite "ALL" you are including babies and the mentally challenged in the all. or do you believe there are exceptions?

All people, this includes Mary.

Do you believe that "All" the mentally challenged and babies are people too?
(p.s. Still waiting for the specific passage that say's Mary sinned.)

Going to abortion clinics is the only way to protest abortion?

I didn't say that. And of course not.

Also, you no doubt know that there are many non-Catholics who protest abortion as well. It is not only Catholics that do so.

Yes, I know this for a fact. However, you must admit that the Catholic Church is the spearhead of the anti-abortion movement. Also, you no doubt know that there are many non-Catholic denominations that are okay with abortions. Something I cannot understand.

 

[Fidelibus]

Sorry, I'm not willing to give out personal information on a public forum.

I don't see where giving out the name of a specific Catholic Church/Parish is considered "personal information." That is unless there is a reason you'd rather I not contact them. For the life of me, I don't know why........... or do I?

And yes, I have indeed read from the Catechism and official Vatican sources as well as Catholic historians.

Thats great! In the future, when you are posting on the beliefs and teachings of Catholicism, please cite such sources to avoid confusion. Thanks!

 

[amariselle]

Who ever said that Sacred Traditions are put "above" Sacred Scripture? They are of equal value! Remember, Like you, I too beleived the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. Again, like you I believed the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God. (p.s. the word 'bible' is nowhere to be found in Scripture)
That is of course until the Holy Spirit helped me to see the truth and recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The Holy Spirit revealed to me that the true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. (i.e. Sola Scriptura is unbiblical and is in its self places it's confidence in Martin Luther’s man-made theory of sola scriptura.)
Now if you are anything like I was, when I heard this from Catholics disputing the "bible Alone" Therory, these two passages; Jn.20:31 "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name", and 2 Tim.3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work". came out as my defence of sola scriptura. However, as I came to learn, nowwhere in these passages does it state that the bible alone is 'sufficient' as a sole rule of faith. As a matter of fact, the New Testament was not fully written when these words were uttered. So in all actuality, to use these passages means you adhere to Sola Scriptura Old Testament only....... as I once did

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. There are just far too many "apostolic traditions" that are in direct conflict with Scripture.

Including babies and the mentaly challenged?

I already responded to this.

Again, you have yet showed a single chapter and verse that says God in His perfect righteousness, knows who is accountable, and who cannot be in regard to thier inability to understand, accept Him,,,,,, when it come to babies (born and unborn) or the mentally challenged. I am asking about a specific chapter and verse. As a sola scripturists, surely you could find it.

Because it is about the entire counsel of Scripture.

Do you believe God is all knowing? All powerful? Perfect in righteousness? The one Who alone will judge all mankind?

I was quite impressed you posted this passage, most non-Catholics tend to ignore it. I can never remember once as Protestant ever hearing this passage being preached upon. Have you? And do you? (call her Blessed?)

Of course she's blessed, but she was not sinless. (And I do not agree with the veneration she is given in the Catholic Church, because such honour belongs to God alone).

So when you high-lite "ALL" you are including babies and the mentally challenged in the all. or do you believe there are exceptions?

I was referring to Scripture here.

Do you believe that "All" the mentally challenged and babies are people too?
(p.s. Still waiting for the specific passage that say's Mary sinned.)

I already shared the Scripture where Mary professes her need for a Saviour.

In contrast, where is the Scriptural proof that Mary never sinned?

I didn't say that. And of course not.

Yes, I know this for a fact. However, you must admit that the Catholic Church is the spearhead of the anti-abortion movement. Also, you no doubt know that there are many non-Catholic denominations that are okay with abortions. Something I cannot understand.

No, I must not admit that the Catholic Church is the "spearhead of the anti-abortion movement." There are countless non-Catholics that are equally involved.

 

[amariselle]

I don't see where giving out the name of a specific Catholic Church/Parish is considered "personal information." That is unless there is a reason you'd rather I not contact them. For the life of me, I don't know why........... or do I?

No you do not, if you are thinking I am being evasive. I do not give out my exact location online. You don't need to understand or agree with that choice, but that is why.

Thats great! In the future, when you are posting on the beliefs and teachings of Catholicism, please cite such sources to avoid confusion. Thanks!

It has become general knowledge in large part to me now. I've been researching and learning for years. I don't always have "chapter and verse" directly on hand.

I'm sure you don't always directly reference each and every statement you make on Protestant beliefs with a direct quote and source material from their documents/Catechisms/statement of faith etc.

 

[Fidelibus]

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. There are just far too many "apostolic traditions" that are in direct conflict with Scripture.

I totally disagree there is a conflict with Sacred Traditions and Sacred Scripture, and I'd like to give you a couple of examples. Do you beleive that every word that Jesus spoke are within the pages of the bible? I don't. example.
1. In Acts 20:35, St Paul say's..."In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Using the Sola Scripture doctrine (bible alone) could you show where in the bible (including the four Gospels) the Chapter and verse where Jesus said this?
2. And in the book of Jude 1:9 it says..."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
Again using your bible alone doctrine, could you show where this dispute between the Archangel Michael and Satan over Moses' body is to be found in the written text of the Old Testament?
You do beleive these passages to be true do you not? Now if they are not recorded in Sacred Scripture, by what other means would you consider them to be true? (hint: Sacred Tradition?)

I already responded to this.

With all due respect.... you have not. Not with a specific bible passage that is.

Because it is about the entire counsel of Scripture.

Please give an example using your bible alone belief.

Do you believe God is all knowing? All powerful? Perfect in righteousness? The one Who alone will judge all mankind?

Yes I do, because The Catholic Church guarntees the faithful handing on the Word of God through the teaching authority of the pope and his bishops, known as the Magesterium. The Magesterium ensures that no new errones doctrine or heresy pops up to lead the people astry. Like a 3 legged stool, the trinity of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium makes sure that the Word of God is faithfully handed on to each succeeding generation. If any one of the three legs goes away, error in certain to creep in, like it is doing in many protestant sects today, who interpret scripture based on their personal opinion of what they think it says. Something that is also common right here within this Christian Forum web-site.

Of course she's blessed.

The question was, do you pronounce it publiclly?

but she was not sinless

Again, which passage proclaims the she (Mary) personally sinned.

(And I do not agree with the veneration she is given in the Catholic Church, because such honour belongs to God alone).

Really? do you not honor your Mother and Father as the Commandments instrust us to do?
Do you think Jesus broke the commandment by not honoring His mother?
Do you think Jesus honored Mary and Joseph?
Keep in mind, we Catholics honor Mary because we beleived Jesus did. We venerate her, but do not worship her. We Catholics beleive that worship is for God...... and for God alone! But then you know this by your studies of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and all the other official writings of the Catholic Chrurch you said to have read. Right?

I was referring to Scripture here.

But still didnt answer the question. When you say scriptre says "all" have sinned, in this "ALL", are you including babies and the mentally challenged in the all. or do you believe there are exceptions?

 

[amariselle]

I totally disagree there is a conflict with Sacred Traditions and Sacred Scripture, and I'd like to give you a couple of examples. Do you beleive that every word that Jesus spoke are within the pages of the bible? I don't. example.
1. In Acts 20:35, St Paul say's..."In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Using the Sola Scripture doctrine (bible alone) could you show where in the bible (including the four Gospels) the Chapter and verse where Jesus said this?
2. And in the book of Jude 1:9 it says..."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
Again using your bible alone doctrine, could you show where this dispute between the Archangel Michael and Satan over Moses' body is to be found in the written text of the Old Testament?
You do beleive these passages to be true do you not? Now if they are not recorded in Sacred Scripture, by what other means would you consider them to be true? (hint: Sacred Tradition?)

You just referred to Scripture that references these events, therefore it is because of Scripture I believe they occurred, not because of "Sacred Tradition."

I'll give you a few examples of what I meant when I said that "Sacred Tradition" contradicts/goes against the Bible.

The Bible forbids necromancy (praying to the dead) Isaiah 8:19, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, 2 Kings 21:6

"Sacred Tradition" encourages praying to Mary and the saints (people who have died).

The Bible records Mary's acknowledgement of her need for Saviour, Luke 1:47

"Sacred Tradition" teaches Mary was "Immaculately conceived" and was without sin.

The Bible is clear that we have one Mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5

"Sacred Tradition" teaches that Mary is our mediator as well, specifically between people and her Son, Jesus.

The Bible is clear that Christ's work on the cross is finished (He Himself said it) John 19:28-30

"Sacred Tradition" teaches that it is not finished but is ongoing in the "Sacrements", specifically the Eucharist where, through "Transubstantiation" Jesus is offered up by the Priest at every Mass as an ongoing sacrifice for sin.

The Bible is clear that Jesus by Himself purged our sins, once for all time. (It is finished) Hebrews 1:3

"Sacred Tradition" teaches that the sacrifice for sin was not finished on the cross, and is not sufficient because rather than faith in what Christ has done alone, one must take part in the Sacrements, and the dead must go to Putgatory for an unknown amount of time to be made completely sinless before entering Heaven.

These are just some examples.

With all due respect.... you have not. Not with a specific bible passage that is.

Please give an example using your bible alone belief.

Yes I do, because The Catholic Church guarntees the faithful handing on the Word of God through the teaching authority of the pope and his bishops, known as the Magesterium. The Magesterium ensures that no new errones doctrine or heresy pops up to lead the people astry. Like a 3 legged stool, the trinity of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium makes sure that the Word of God is faithfully handed on to each succeeding generation. If any one of the three legs goes away, error in certain to creep in, like it is doing in many protestant sects today, who interpret scripture based on their personal opinion of what they think it says. Something that is also common right here within this Christian Forum web-site.

So what happens when "Sacred Tradition" or the "Magisterium" is in conflict with Scripture?

The question was, do you pronounce it publicly?

What do you mean by "publicly"?

Again, which passage proclaims the she (Mary) personally sinned.

I've answered this multiple times now, and again above.

Really? do you not honor your Mother and Father as the Commandments instrust us to do?
Do you think Jesus broke the commandment by not honoring His mother?
Do you think Jesus honored Mary and Joseph?
Keep in mind, we Catholics honor Mary because we beleived Jesus did. We venerate her, but do not worship her. We Catholics beleive that worship is for God...... and for God alone! But then you know this by your studies of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and all the other official writings of the Catholic Chrurch you said to have read. Right?

Actually, Jesus never once taught people to venerate Mary the way the Catholic Church teaches. Here are two examples from Scripture when He had an opportunity to do so, if that had been His wish:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." - Luke 11:27-28

"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." - Matthew 12:46-50

Why didn't Jesus teach on these two occasions that Mary should be honoured and venerated above all women as the Catholic Church teaches today? Why didn't He say, "yes, blessed is my Holy Virgin Mother above all women? Pray to her once I have returned to My Father, and she will intercede for you, especially at the hour of your death"?

None of the other apostles did or said any such thing either.

But still didnt answer the question. When you say scriptre says "all" have sinned, in this "ALL", are you including babies and the mentally challenged in the all. or do you believe there are exceptions?

Scripture says "all", I believe it means what it says.

 

[Major1]

Of course it matters, as Mary is the source of Jesus' humanity.

For instance, there are indeed some Protestants that think Jesus body was "heavenly" or in some way different from ours. This is a serious heresy. I will state emphatically they worship a different Christ. Because a Christ who is not truly human in every way as we are, save sin, cannot save any of us, any more than a space alien could. We need a hypostatic union between God and humanity, not simply a moral example or a blood sacrifice.

Mary is the locus where the Incarnation happened, her biology is our Savior's biology, indeed it is not wrong to call her the Ark of the New Covenant. It's not wrong to meditate and reflect upon this in terms of theology, as the early Church did at Chalcedon in calling her Theotokos.

The real and the only reason it is wrong to call her the Ark of the New Test. and to think that she is sinless and went to heaven body and spirit is because the Scriptures do not say that.

 

[Major1]

I totally disagree there is a conflict with Sacred Traditions and Sacred Scripture, and I'd like to give you a couple of examples. Do you beleive that every word that Jesus spoke are within the pages of the bible? I don't. example.
1. In Acts 20:35, St Paul say's..."In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Using the Sola Scripture doctrine (bible alone) could you show where in the bible (including the four Gospels) the Chapter and verse where Jesus said this?
2. And in the book of Jude 1:9 it says..."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
Again using your bible alone doctrine, could you show where this dispute between the Archangel Michael and Satan over Moses' body is to be found in the written text of the Old Testament?
You do beleive these passages to be true do you not? Now if they are not recorded in Sacred Scripture, by what other means would you consider them to be true? (hint: Sacred Tradition?)

With all due respect.... you have not. Not with a specific bible passage that is.

Please give an example using your bible alone belief.


Yes I do, because The Catholic Church guarntees the faithful handing on the Word of God through the teaching authority of the pope and his bishops, known as the Magesterium. The Magesterium ensures that no new errones doctrine or heresy pops up to lead the people astry. Like a 3 legged stool, the trinity of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium makes sure that the Word of God is faithfully handed on to each succeeding generation. If any one of the three legs goes away, error in certain to creep in, like it is doing in many protestant sects today, who interpret scripture based on their personal opinion of what they think it says. Something that is also common right here within this Christian Forum web-site.

The question was, do you pronounce it publiclly?

Again, which passage proclaims the she (Mary) personally sinned.

Really? do you not honor your Mother and Father as the Commandments instrust us to do?
Do you think Jesus broke the commandment by not honoring His mother?
Do you think Jesus honored Mary and Joseph?
Keep in mind, we Catholics honor Mary because we beleived Jesus did. We venerate her, but do not worship her. We Catholics beleive that worship is for God...... and for God alone! But then you know this by your studies of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and all the other official writings of the Catholic Chrurch you said to have read. Right?

But still didnt answer the question. When you say scriptre says "all" have sinned, in this "ALL", are you including babies and the mentally challenged in the all. or do you believe there are exceptions?

Your question was..........
"But still didnt answer the question. When you say scriptre says "all" have sinned, in this "ALL", are you including babies and the mentally challenged in the all. or do you believe there are exceptions?"

Romans 3:23 says.......
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

We are all born into the world with sinful natures, due to the sin of Adam.
That includes the mother of Jesus, Mary. Mary was a sinner because she was a human being and "ALL" have sinned.

Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners.............
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.”

Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are.......
“sons of disobedience.”

Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all ........
“by nature children of wrath.”

If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners — for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Romans 5:1................
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all have sinned sinned".

Romans 6:23 ............
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Now, your question was, do innocent babies die? The Bible answer I just posted above for you says, Yes.

Infants die, therefore they are not innocent .Death — both physical and spiritual — is a result of sin according to Romans 5:1 and 6:23. Now you can and I am sure that yo will argue that with Catholic tradition but the Scriptures are crystal clear. Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners.

Now that doe NOT mean that they go to hell. IMO opinion they are all "under the blood" and are safe in the arms of the Lord Jesus Christ. You see, every single person in heaven today is a SINNER!!!!
God saves sinners from the judgment so it is obviouse that babies would be saved and in heaven just as well as those sinners who came to Christ.

It could be objected that Christ was sinless, and yet He died. But He willingly gave up His life, and He did it to conquer the curse of death that we were under. In fact, God imputed to Christ our sins on the cross, and Christ died in punishment of those sins because we can not help ourselves neither can we save ourselves..

 

[Major1]

When the Church defines dogma, it's because it has been divinely revealed. Not believing it is the same as not believing Christ. That is a serious transgression.

Explain the term......"Divinely revealed".