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Featured Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by melody5697, May 22, 2017.

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  1. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    If I watched you from outside dusting them off it would appear to me that you are bowing to them. What appears to be is more important than the truth, isn't it Major1?
    Neither do we, you are just ignorant of the sign of the cross so you make up straw man fallacies as such.

    Your Bible is a Christian devotional aid. Where the term came from is irrelevant. The pamphlets that litter your church are Christian devotional aids. Art that has been used since the first century that helps ascend the mind to God are devotional aids. Calling them all idols is just plain stupid.
    We don't need them, but you keep missing the point.

    The Bible says do not bear false witness, which is what you do with this false idolatry charge.
    A statue is not worshiped, and you refuse to drop your preconceptions. For the 100th time, no statue or painting is worshiped, then it would be a graven image. You have no evidence that they are graven images in the minds of Catholics apart from superficial observation, an opinion, and plain 'ol fashion prejudice. So please stop with your FALSE ACCUSATIONS.

    We honor saints in heaven because they have attained the likeness (eikon / image) of God (2 Cor 3:18); “spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb 12:23). This is why we venerate them, because they reflect God’s glory and are His vessels. The painter is praised when his masterpiece is praised. It is His work. The saints are God’s workmanship, not man’s. Paul tells us to “imitate” him, which is a concept, it seems to me, similar to “honoring” or “veneration” (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9); and this is because he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6). We are exhorted to honor and imitate the “heroes of the faith” in Hebrews 6:12 and chapter 11.
    Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, & Idolatry (An Exposition)

    [​IMG]
    from psychotic iconoclasts:
    A "graven image" of St. Matthew writing in a graven image of a book supported by a graven image of an angel and none of it tells me anything about St. Matthew writing his gospel and I need a new brain.​
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
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  2. Evan Briggs

    Evan Briggs Member

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    Respectfully, what is your interpretation of the term "knew" in Matt 1:25.

    Because the Holy Spirit reveals to me through other scriptures of the same context that "knew" means to have sexual relations.

    What version Bible do you use?
     
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  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The Scriptures do not say that Mary and Joseph "knew" each other after Jesus was born. It says that they didn't throughout the duration of Mary's pregnancy.

    If I say, "Until Bob's dying day, he never smoked a cigarette." That doesn't mean that Bob smoked a cigarette after his dying day, it means the entire duration of time being spoken of.

    Matthew 1:25 does not mean Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus' birth. It only means that they didn't have sex while Mary was pregnant with the Lord.

    Whether or not Mary and Joseph ever had sex is never mentioned in the Bible. One could suppose they did, since that would be a reasonable thing to suppose of a married couple, but going purely by the word of Scripture such a thing cannot be concluded. And, to the contrary, it has been the historic, rather unanimous, opinion of the Church that Mary remained ever-virgin.

    The argument against Mary being ever-virgin is one that can be supposed by reason, but not by Scripture or the historic tradition of the Church.

    The argument in favor of Mary being ever-virgin is one that may be initially the most reasonable supposition, neither is it found in Scripture, but it is the historic opinion of the Church.

    Neither position can be ascertained through Scripture alone, since Scripture is entirely silent on this subject.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  4. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    So certain of this are you?
     
  5. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    You base a whole theology on one word? Never mind the purity of the Ark of the New Covenant, never mind the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, never mind the Daughter of Zion, the writings of the early church fathers and above all, ignore 1st century Jewish customs because you have the word "knew".
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Perhaps you could show us where in the Bible it says that Mary gave birth to children other than Jesus.

    I'm not sure how you could possibly know this. Has the Holy Spirit revealed to something that He has not shared with the rest of us?

    No. That isn't what "the Protestant churches" do. That may be what your Protestant church does, but it's quite false that this is some universal Protestant belief. This is not the position of the Reformers or of the historic churches of the Reformation.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  7. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Scripture isn't silent on the purity of the Ark of the Covenant, a foreshadow of the Ark of the New Covenant, which can only be Mary. What the Ark contained foreshadows Jesus, but the Ark itself foreshadows Mary.
    Lesson One: A Biblical Introduction to Mary | Lesson | St. Paul Center
     
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  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Permitting the analogy itself, suggesting that if Mary did have intercourse with her husband after the birth of the Lord would have made her impure comes across as an attack on the sanctity of marriage; as though marriage and its ordinary course--sex and procreation--are somehow impure or less than sacred.

    This is a great stretch to try and insist that the sanctity of the Ark of the Covenant means Mary is ever-virgin. This is no less weak an argument than saying that Mary must have had sex with Joseph because of Matthew 1:25. I would recommend not throwing the race while you're ahead.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you you show us in the Bible where Mary is said to be a perpetual virgin and sinless.

    Already said and done from Matt. 1:25 and NO the Holy Spirit has said nothing to me that He has not already said in the Scriptures.
     
  10. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Lets do some deep theological teaching here and see how your understanding is.

    Every Catholic understands and says that Rev. 12:1-2 ...........
    “And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth” IS REFERRING TO MARY.

    If you notice the text in verse 2 it says that she was “with child and she cried out being in labor and in pain.” This is a problem because according to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary did not inherit Original Sin.

    CCC 491..........
    “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

    Gen. 3:16, .........
    "To the woman He said, 'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children. Yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'”

    Notice that part of the curse is pain in childbirth. This is why women suffer during the birth process. So, when we look back to the text of Revelation 12:1-2, we see that the woman clothed with the sun is suffering birth pain. Since the Roman Catholic position is that Mary could not be suffering birth pain because of her Immaculate Conception and no Original Sin, then these verses cannot be about Mary and therefore the teaching of Mary as a perpetual virgin is voided.
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    My dear friend........I suggest that you actually do so Bible homework and stay away from Catholic apologetic websites.

    What you just said is ridiculous and totally in error and false.
     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    PLEASE.......do some homework!

    (Know, Knowledge - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online)
    The word "know" is used as a euphemism for sex and intercourse: Adam knew his wife Eve and she became pregnant ( Gen 4:1 ). Women who have "known" a man are no longer virgins ( Numbers 31:17 Numbers 31:35 ).In his declining days David had an attractive attendant who served him but did not have sexual relationships with him ( 1 Kings 1:4 ). Even sexual perversions such as sodomy ( Gen 19:5 ; Judges 19:22 ) and rape ( Judges 19:25 )are designated by the word "know."

    This is not just that hard!!!!
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You said............
    " but going purely by the word of Scripture such a thing cannot be concluded."

    And THAT right there is why there is disagreement between Protestant and Catholic.

    We actually DO believe the Scriptures and you believe what a man says and you call that Tradition.
     
  14. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The gospels do not contain anything unnecessary yet some Protestants insist that Matthew is writing something explicitly stating that Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse, which has absolutely no bearing on the Gospel. The Greek text of Matthew 1:25 is actually a very concise and economical manner of stating that Jesus' birth was not the result of a sexual union between Joseph and Mary. That is all that is being conveyed. Nothing more.
     
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  15. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    As You stated above:

    THAT IS YOUR OPINION! :clap:
     
  16. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    What you believe about Mary is an absolute untruth and only YOUR OPINION!

    Where is the Bible 'fact' Mary bore other children? There is NO FACT. You have been given the excellent evidence posted above that Mary did not have any other children yet you childishly keep bringing up so much untruths and non-facts!

    Every time someone brings up indisputable evidence you then counter by posting such uneducated falsehoods!
     
  17. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    No such thing as homeless? Really!!!!! :doh:

    You call yourself a Christian and you slander the homeless??? :doh:
     
  18. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Thank you for posting the above. Said in such a loving and true manner.

    God bless you
     
  19. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Everything you spout is in error and false as has been proven again and again in this thread!! :doh:
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    If you choose to accept Catholic doctrine over Bible doctrine you are welcome to do so. It is of course YOUR choice.

    I am able to read the Bible to me, to claim Mary was a perpetual virgin even after Christ was born is to deny the words of the Apostle Matthew, who wrote
    in Matt. 1:24-25......
    “Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS”.

    It seems to me that most of my Catholic friends have removed their ability to read the Scriptures and come to logical conclusions based on the Scriptures. It seems as if they are unable to think for themselves. Please just stop for a moment and think about what God commanded.

    Wasn't it God who commanded people to be fruitful and multiply in Genesis 1:28 and twice in Genesis 9, verses 1 and 7. Do all of you just tear those pages out of your Bible and Blindly follow along with what you are told?????

    When you read Malachi 2:14–15, and please read it, does it not say to you that one reason for marriage is to have godly offspring?????

    Since that is the case and it is the case, then why would Mary be disobedient to God? Since she was truly a godly woman, don't you in your heart think that she would have respected His commands and honor them. Having at least two daughters and five sons as the Scriptures LITERALLY SAY would indeed be fulfilling God’s commands to be fruitful and multiply.

    Then, one does not have to be a brain surgeon to do the study of words and languages and their meanings to see that the word “Knew” was a modest way of describing sexual relations in ancient times.

    However, if you choose to reject all that and stick with the Catholic's doctrine......go right ahead and do so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
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