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Featured Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by melody5697, May 22, 2017.

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  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You said.....
    I gave Matthew 28:9-20 as an inference and Romans 1:8 and Acts 9:31 as supporting proof text using Greek words for the term "Catholic".

    Matthew 28:9-20.........
    And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.” Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

    The Great Commission
    Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

    And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

    No matter how many times I read those verses, I just can not find CATHOLIC CHURCH in them. That can only mean that YOU are placing thm there to validate what the Catholic church has told you.

    The Roman Catholic Church sees the papacy and the infallible teaching authority of “Mother Church” as being necessary to guide the church, and uses that as logical reasoning for God’s provision of it. But in examining Scripture, we find the following:

    1) While Peter was central in the early spread of the gospel (part of the meaning behind Matthew 16:18-19), the teaching of Scripture, taken in context, nowhere declares that he was in authority over the other apostles or over the church (see Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; 1 Peter 5:1-5). Nor is it ever taught that the bishop of Rome was to have primacy over the church. Rather, there is only one reference in Scripture of Peter writing from “Babylon,” a name sometimes applied to Rome, found in 1 Peter 5:13. Primarily from this, and the historical rise of the influence of the bishop of Rome (due to the support of Constantine and the Roman emperors who followed him), come the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching of the primacy of the bishop of Rome. However, Scripture shows that Peter’s authority was shared by the other apostles (Ephesians 2:19-20) and that the “loosing and binding” authority attributed to him was likewise shared by the local churches, not just their church leaders (see Matthew 18:15-19; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Titus 2:15; 3:10-11).

    2) Nowhere does Scripture state that in order to keep the church from error, the authority of the apostles was passed on to those they ordained (the idea behind apostolic succession). Apostolic succession is “read into” those verses that the Roman Catholic Church uses to support this doctrine (2 Timothy 2:2; 4:2-5; Titus 1:5; 2:1; 2:15; 1 Timothy 5:19-22). What Scripture DOES teach is that false teachings would arise even from among church leaders and that Christians were to compare the teachings of these later church leaders with Scripture, which alone is cited in the Bible as infallible. The Bible does not teach that the apostles were infallible, apart from what was written by them and incorporated into Scripture. Paul, in talking to the church leaders in the large city of Ephesus, makes note of coming false teachers. Paul does NOT commend them to “the apostles and those who would carry on their authority,” but rather to “God and to the word of His grace” (Acts 20:28-32).

    Again, the Bible teaches that it is Scripture that is to be used as measuring stick to determine truth from error. In Galatians 1:8-9, Paul states that it is not WHO teaches but WHAT is being taught that is to be used to determine truth from error. While the Roman Catholic Church continues to pronounce a curse to hell, or “anathema,” upon those who would reject the authority of the pope, Scripture reserves that curse for those who would teach a different gospel (Galatians 1:8-9).

    3) While the Roman Catholic Church sees apostolic succession as logically necessary in order for God to unerringly guide the church, Scripture states that God has provided for His church through the following:

    (a) Infallible Scripture, (Acts 20:32; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; Acts 17:10-12; Isaiah 8:20; 40:8; etc.) Note: Peter speaks of Paul’s writings in the same category as other Scripture (2 Peter 3:16),

    (b) Christ’s unending high-priesthood in heaven (Hebrews 7:22-28),

    (c) The provision of the Holy Spirit who guided the apostles into truth after Christ’s death (John 16:12-14), who gifts believers for the work of the ministry, including teaching (Romans 12:3-8; Ephesians 4:11-16), and who uses the written Word as His chief tool (Hebrews 4:12; Ephesians 6:17).

    While there have seemingly been good (humanly speaking) and moral men who have served as pope of the Roman Catholic Church—some point to Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis I as examples—the Roman Catholic teaching about the office of the pope should be rejected because it is not “in continuity” with the teachings of the New Testament. This comparison of any church’s teaching is essential, lest we miss the New Testament’s teaching concerning the gospel and not only miss eternal life in heaven ourselves but unwittingly lead others down the wrong path (Galatians 1:8-9).

    Recommended Resource: The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God by James McCarthy
     
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your words, however they do not speak to his ongoing problem of telling untruths and making up stuff that others did not say.

    Again.....and please be honest, what if I said on this open forum that......
    " YOU said you do not believe the Holy Spirit is at work today in the church."

    What would YOU say or do my friend?
     
  3. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    First, bbbb blamed everything on Rome for the Great Schism, which is false.
    Second, he likes to pit Catholics against Orthodox, I've seen him do this on other threads.(while we are trying to reconcile)
    Third, I gave him a list of articles so he could get an education and not EMBARRASS himself with ignorance.
    Fourth, there is no question you have offered directly to me that I have not answered.
    Fifth, I am entitled to a certain righteous indignation when LIES and FALSE HISTORIES are posted. Hence the sarcasm. bbbb need to learn he can't just go around pooping on Catholics because his diaper is overflowing. Same goes for you.
    Sixth, whenever a Catholic gives an anti-Catholic a taste of their own medicine, suddenly we are not very "Christian".

    I've asked you the same question 5 TIMES, not even an attempt to answer it, so who are you to talk about not answering?
     
  4. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    As a Catholic, I pray the Holy Rosary.

    This is part of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

    The Holy Rosary is an Amazing Instrument of Prayer.

    It assists the Discipline of Prayer which is very important in our Spiritual Life.

    Graces are obtained for us through Mary from Jesus.

    So one of the prayers that is recited the most in the Holy Rosary is The Hail Mary.

    I say the Hail Mary like this:

    Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with You.
    Most Blessed are You among woman,
    And Blessed is the Fruit of Your Womb, JESUS,
    Holy Mary, Mother of God,
    Pray for us sinners,
    Now and at the hour of our death.
    Amen.

    This is a Catholic Tradition which I must say is Exquisite.

    I love saying the Hail Mary. It's like singing about the Mystery of Redemption.

    God bless The Catholic Church.

    God bless the Pope.

    God bless all the Defenders' of the Catholic Faith.

    God bless Goatee.

    God bless Kepha31.

    God bless also those who are at odds with us.

    We love all of you because we, Catholics have Big Loving Hearts.

    God bless you.
     
  5. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you, Sir Goatee.

    You are a Champion and Defender of the Catholic Faith and Our Traditions.

    I am proud to call you my Brother, Sir Goatee, Champion of Catholics Rights and Defender of the Truth.

    Keep defending and speaking. You have that right in this thread because you are Catholic.

    Defend, Defend, Defend.

    Don't let Major1 bully you.

    God bless you, Sir Goatee, Knight of the Catholic Faith and Defender of the Truth.

    God bless you.
     
  6. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Book, chapter, and verse(s) where Jesus tells us to pray to Mary, please. Thanks.
     
  7. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    It's in there somewhere. I'm just a Catholic that prays the Holy Rosary.

    I don't specialise in explaining Holy Scripture. I just like praying the Holy Rosary.

    I'm not a Holy Scripture Expert.

    If I can't explain it to you, that means it's Sacred Scripture which is part of Sacred Tradition.

    Just take my word for it.

    I could interpret Holy Scripture just like Bible Worshippers and make the Bible say whatever I want it to say.

    But I find that to be rather dishonorable because I claim not to know Holy Scripture well.

    I am just a novice in Holy Scripture. I understand Holy Scripture only like a Baby which is nothing.

    So yeah, that's my explanation.

    God bless you.
     
  8. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    curious rephrasing
    Here's what you said - the exact wording that I quoted:
    I find it interesting that you decided to distort your own comment this time, changing the criteria.
    So back to the comment at hand you said,
    One example of that certainly does exist in N.T. scripture. The story goes like this; "..they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." ESV
     
  9. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I seemed to have skipped over you post #865. My bad. What I don't understand is why you find my failing eyesight so hilarious, or is this just "your" attempt at being sarcastic? If my eyes served me correctly, wasen't it you scolding another poster for sarcasim?

    I appreciate you admitting not being an expert nor scholar and giving your personal opinion on this passage that is subject to error.

    The Catholic view on this passage is that Paul knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the "power of God".

    In 1 Cor 2:2, Paul say's "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." Again, didn't Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

    Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the "power of God". This is why, we "keep Jesus on the cross," because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God's power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

    Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

    And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

    One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their "eyes", as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn't it?

    In closing Major1, could you show in Scriptures where it speaks of an “Altar Call" and the "Sinners prayer" is to be preformed and said as Protestants do in their church services? I am also looking forward to see your answer to Kepha's question he's put forth to you 4-5 times.
     
  10. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it's not.

    I never take the word of someone when it comes to scripture, especially someone who in the next breath says they don't know scripture well. That's how folks end up believing all sorts of unbiblical theologies. Jesus warned us about that kind of thing in Luke 6:39.
     
  11. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    Well, you should stay and stick with Holy Scripture then and not do what I do.

    What I do is part of being Catholic.

    I like being Catholic.

    People believe in all sorts of things in life.

    I love statues.

    I love Mary.

    I love the Catholic Church.

    I respect your right to claim you know Holy Scripture.

    God bless you.
     
  12. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    That pretty much says it all.
     
  13. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Then "Trinity", "Incarnation", or "Bible" is not in the Bible either. I said Matthew 28:9-20 was infered. Here is the dictionary definition (google):
    a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.
    Matthew 28:9-20 is not a proof text, and I never said it was.
    It's evidence and reasoning that you seem to reject both.
    That is a misrepresentation of the historical facts
    Jesus gave Peter powers to bind and loose as an individual, then Jesus gave those powers to the Apostles collectively, showing Peter's preeminence.

    2) Nowhere does Scripture state that in order to keep the church from error, the authority of the apostles was passed on to those they ordained (the idea behind apostolic succession). Apostolic succession is “read into” those verses that the Roman Catholic Church uses to support this doctrine (2 Timothy 2:2; 4:2-5; Titus 1:5; 2:1; 2:15; 1 Timothy 5:19-22). What Scripture DOES teach is that false teachings would arise even from among church leaders and that Christians were to compare the teachings of these later church leaders with Scripture, which alone is cited in the Bible as infallible.[/quote] How can scripture teach that when there was no complete Bible for 4 centuries?
    That has NOTHING to do with infallibility.
    You are reading OUT of scripture your own quotes. You claim Timothy was not being prepared to succeed Paul. You are writing your own Bible.
    The Gnostics were the religion of false teachers of Paul's time. They "forbid marriage" not after the teachings of Jesus and Paul on celibacy, but because they thought marriage was evil. They abstained from certain foods, not because they were following accepted norms on fasting, but because they thought the foods themselves were evil. John wrote about them as well, so did St. Ignatius.
    If you are going to scream FALSE TEACHERS, try naming some of them, like Arius, Nestorius, Apollinarius or any heretic that used Bible-alone to teach their heresies.
    Ignatius lived from around A.D. 35 to 107. He was the third bishop of Antioch and tradition records that he was a disciple of the apostle John (cf. The Maryrdom of Ignatius). During the reign of Emperor Trajan, he was taken to Rome and suffered martyrdom there. Along the way he wrote seven letters—one to St. Polycarp of Smyrna, and six others to various churches.
    Take note of t
    hose who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God… They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 6
    What does he know? He was only trained by the Apostle John. You can put your Protestant blinders on and dismiss the Early Church Fathers because they are not inspired and none of them were evangelical/non-denom/fundamentalist Protestants.
    Anathema follows Paul's usage, a curse to hell is another anti-Catholic falsehood. The Bible says nothing about the word of God being confined to the written word. That is a false man made tradition.
    Paul said to prove all things, he said nothing about proving with a Bible that would not exist for 4 centuries.
    It is true that any proposed tradition which contradicts Apostolic Scripture is a false tradition and must be rejected, but this does not make Apostolic Tradition inferior to Scripture for that reason. It is also true that any proposed scripture which contradicts Apostolic Tradition is a false scripture and must be rejected.

    This was, in fact, one of the ways in which the canon of the New Testament was selected. Any scriptures which contained doctrines which were contrary to the Traditions the apostles had handed down to the Church Fathers were rejected. Between the Gnostic gospels (like the Gospel of Thomas) or Marcion's edited version of Luke and Paul's epistles, there were a lot of heretical writings that different groups wanted to see in the New Testament. But the Fathers said, "No, this contradicts the faith that was handed down to us from the apostles. Thus it must be a forged writing."​

    So while tradition must be tested against Scripture to see if the tradition is apostolic, it is also true that scripture must be tested against Tradition to see if the scripture is apostolic. There is complementarity here, and one mode of teaching is not automatically inferior to the other.
    INFO: The sources of theology
    These are all Catholic teachings you borrowed from us.

    Everything that is true in your church came from the Catholic Church.
    Corresponding with James McCarthy
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  14. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Sorry but I genuinely do not see the posts where I have called you a liar etc etc. Really, I can't!

    Looks like you might be upset that you can't convert me to your non-denom I guess.

    If you have been personally insulted by anything I have written then I do apologise but I really believe I have not offended you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    We now live in the days Paul warned us about in 2 Tim. 4:3-4...............
    " For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. "
     
  16. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's anything new. If you recall, one of the things Paul frequently dealt with was people preaching false gospels (Colossians, for example). If you want to see perhaps the worst of this in today's American culture, watch a Joel Osteen "sermon" some day.
     
  17. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    I agree. This began when people decided to go against the church of Christ, the Catholic Church. All these 1,000s of denominations and non-denominations sprung up.
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    My apologies. That could be considered sarcastic and I guess exposure here has rubbed off onto me.

    Kepha post such long posts that honestly I do not read through them anymore. They are just the same thing over and over.

    If he asked me something I missed it just as did you my post #865. IF you would like to repeat it I will try to respond and answer it.

    I am pretty sure that all educated people are aware that there are no actual words in Scriptures concerning an "Alter Call" any more than there are the words Catholic Church in the Scriptures. Charles Finney was one of the great preachers in the early 1800's who is recognized as one who used this practice.

    Ministers and lay men who witness to the lost in hopes of leading them to Christ. When that happened, they followed Romans 10:9 by saying the "Sinners prayer"................
    "If you will believe in your heart and repeat with your mouth that Jesus is the Christ, you will be saved".

    Then later in the evening or the next tent meeting service or worship event, those people were asked to come forward and declare their position and conversion just as Christ called each of His disciples publicly, telling them, “Follow Me” in Matthew 4:19; 9:9 and expecting them to respond immediately, which they did. Jesus was demanding an outward identification with Himself on the part of those who would be His disciples which is the reason for it being done today.

    Back about 25 years I was involved with the Billy Graham Crusades in Orlando Fl, We went to the homes of people we were told about who were not saved. Over a two week time span a group of us went door to door and lead hundreds to Christ. Then when Dr. Graham asked those who had come to Christ, to come forward so that he could prayer for each one. Those are the people you saw walking the isles, not because of Dr. Grahams sermon but because of the back group work done.
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    AMEN Brother!
     
  20. Tangible

    Tangible Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

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    Jesus is no longer in the manger either. Do you put out a nativity scene at Christmas?

    And besides, when we read of Christ's passion or where Paul vows to preach nothing but Christ crucified, do we not form a mental image of our crucified Lord in our mind? There is no difference between observing an image through our mind's eye and observing a beautiful representation of the crucified Savior with our external eyes.
     
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