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Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by melody5697, May 22, 2017.

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  1. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    So how would you explain 1Cor. 1:23. Why do you think Paul preaches Christ crucifed?

    So here in this life Major1, do you believe we share much in the glory of Christ' suffering on the cross or the glory of the Resurrection?
     
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    As you have know made it abundantly clear that you do not have the Bible knowledge or the clarity of thought to carry on a debate civilly, the only thing then left for you to do is make personal comments and attacks which is nothing more than the actions of a bully.

    You have a wonderful day my friend and in your spare time, open the Bible for a change instead on posting on the internet. You will be amazed at what you could learn.
     
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I am not an a scholar neither am I an expert in way whatsoever but YOU asked me how I would explain 1 Corth 1:23...........
    "But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness."

    IMO the Jews found the cross to be a stumbling block. They wanted a SIGN. They wanted someone to show the way. They wanted a pointer, a highway marker or road sign. I believer that they would have accepted a deliverer on a white horse who was putting down the Roman oppression.

    But a crucified Christ was an insult to them. That actually meant DEFEAT instead of victory and they did not want to accept that in any way.

    Rom. 9:33 says..........
    "As it is written: Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
    And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

    And then Peter followed that by saying in 1 Peter 2:7-8..............
    "Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
    “The stone which the builders rejected
    Has become the chief cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling
    And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed."

    When we read the Bible, we see that it makes it clear that the human argument alone is definitely insufficient to bring unbelievers to a knowledge of the truth. One could say that apart from the intervention of God’s Holy Spirit, people are not just waiting until the first Christian comes along with an explanation of the gospel, telling them that it’s true, so then they’ll believe.

    So then the 1st step of that process is the crucifixion of Christ on the Cross. The cross was a true, factual historical event which in fact would speak to those who demanded a sign.

    It seems to me that you are trying to pose a conundrum/trap kind of question. If not I apologize for the thought.

    However, the resurrection is just as important as is the death of Christ in that they comprise the gospel. For Paul, to preach Christ crucified is also to preach Christ resurrected since it is precisely through His death that the resurrection comes. The death on the cross opened the door to the resurrection and without one there could not have been the other.

    But then some who hold to a certain theological perspective, point out that Christ died for us. Of course He did. He also rose from the dead FOR US and that act sealed the deal of salvation for all who will believe and accept the gospel. Since he died for us, the thinking goes, it is a mistake to focus so much on His death when it is the resurrection that is the big news—the gospel. BINGO!

    For Paul, the death AND the Resurrection of Christ is something we experience in our lives.

    Romans 6:3............
    “Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?”.

    2 Corth. 4:8 & 10..............
    “We are afflicted in every way … always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus”.

    Rom. 6:6........
    “We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin”.
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    All of that is wonderful information.

    Now one question to you.

    How has anything I have said on this forum site been different than what you just posted?
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    My apologies to you. I did not see the posted link.

    It is not what anyone says to do, it is what men do normally. Men are sinners and sinners sin.

    What did the people who came out of Egypt do the very minute they had the opportunity. They made a golden calf and bowed down to it and worshipped it.

    May the Lord bless you my friend.
     
  6. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    I am not the one insulting people with false charges of idol worship. Your false perceptions, a refusal to accept biblical definitions, denial of good use of images in the Temple, a denial of the meaning of the bronze serpent, and a distortion of Ex. 20...your excuses to criticize the proper (and biblical) use of images have all been dismantled.
    You are using a grave sin as a non sequitur fallacy against the biblical use of statues to support your blind prejudice.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  7. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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  8. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I will be glad to help you with this.

    Exodus 20:4-5............
    You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.".

    Deuteronomy 4:23-24.........
    " Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

    Deuteronomy 4:16-18........
    " so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth."

    Leviticus 26:1 ..........
    “Do not make idols or set up carved images, or sacred pillars, or sculptured stones in your land so you may worship them. I am the LORD your God."

    Psalm 97:7 A.....
    "All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols– worship him, all you gods!"

    Isaiah 44:8-11 ........
    "Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame. Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit nothing? People who do that will be put to shame; such craftsmen are only human beings. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and shame."

    Jeremiah 10:14-15 .............
    "Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, for his images are false, and there is no breath in them. They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish."

    Now why do YOU think that it is that so hard for you to read and grasp the words right out of the Bible????

    It does not require a Doctorate in theology to see that it is idolatry to worship false gods or the true God by statues or pictures. As I have said before, no one knows how Jesus or Mary looks like so how can you make an image of him? God is not wood, stone, or metal and he will not be worshipped as if he was a man-made item.

    I really do think that you had a great idea. Why don't YOU just stop arguing and posting comments to me and that way I will not have to respond and the problem is solved. Remember, YOU approached me first. I did not seek you our in any way.
     
  9. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    When you read the NT do you have any images that come into your mind of Jesus, the Apostles, Paul or in the OT, do u imagine Moses etc etc or do you draw a blanc?

    God Gave us imaginations!

    Looking at what you write, I think it is you that is very mixed up with scripture. Stick with the 'original' and you would be with the Catholic Church!!
     
  10. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    So, in effect, you could very well be the one being deceived Major1........:scratch:
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  11. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Why is it so hard for you to accept that worship of statues or images is strictly forbidden? Do you think the Church, that invented the university, promotes stupidity?
    It only takes 2 functioning neurons to see that God is not worshiped in that manner. They did not worship the pillar of cloud but worshiped God through it.
    This blindness is your main problem.
    Your arguments are repeated and pointless. And none of your list of scriptures bans the proper biblical use of images. What is banned is the worship of them, and you refuse to accept that statues and images of Jesus, Mary and the saints are NOT worshiped as your false perceptions won't have it any other way.
    Your other problem is this unbiblical notion that we can only pray to God and no one else. This too is unbiblical.

    “The Bible never shows anyone praying to anyone other than God! And we can never communicate to anyone who is dead, either; that’s occultic!”

    Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that they claim is nonexistent in Scripture. In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext:
    Luke 16:24...
    ...Protestant theology also generally teaches that we can’t talk to anyone who is dead, let alone make intercessory requests to them. Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation (11:3-13) came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Mt 27:50-53), etc...

    ...We conclude, then, that Jesus sanctioned “prayer to” dead men for requests. That is the traditional notion of “communion of saints.”
    WORSHIPING GOD THROUGH IMAGES IN HOLY SCRIPTURE
    Exodus 33:9-11
    2 Chronicles 7:1-4
    According to Reformed Protestant iconoclastic thinking, they were worshiping a cloud and fire. I say they were worshiping God *through* those images. If not, then the Bible wouldn't have presented these things positively. They would have been condemned as idolatry. But they were not.

    Idolatry (biblically defined) is a matter of the heart. It isn't just a matter of plaster and wood. Idolatry requires one to be substituting any created thing for God Himself. Using something as a visual or devotional aid is not *necessarily* or always doing that. One is worshiping God by means of the visual aid.

    For a crucifix (for example) to be "idolatry" (as some Protestants hold) one would have to believe the hyper-ridiculous thing that a piece of plaster is

    1) actually God, or a god;
    and
    2) meant to replace the one true God as a substitute (an idol).

    I submit that virtually no Christian in the history of the world who knows ANYTHING about the faith has ever done such a silly thing. They're obviously worshiping Jesus (God) by means of the visual aid.

    I can see how a Protestant would object to a statue of Mary or other saint, because they falsely think veneration is worship, and that belongs only to God. I can't understand (even under Protestant premises) the objection to a statue of Jesus or a crucifix: not since the incarnation and Jesus Himself being the "image [Gk., "eikon"] of the invisible God." Protestants have no objection, oddly enough, to statues of Luther in front of seminaries, or huge statues of John Calvin and three other guys in Geneva on the "Reformation Wall."
    Dave Armstrong
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  12. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Again, you cast judgement!

    You are reacting to what you see with your human eyes.

    God can see into the heart and soul.

    Again, I know of no Catholic who worships anyone other than God. If I bow to a Crucifix, it is in memory and love and respect for what Jesus did for us.

    God know our minds.

    If I bow in front of a statue, again, it is in reverence for who that statues represents in my mind.

    The most important thing is not what others think. No.

    What God knows is the most important thing.

    Scripture in Exodus was given for very specific reason. The people of that time worshiped 'anything'.

    Major1, you are lost in your sometimes 'literal' reading of scripture. It shows that you do not really understand it's true meaning.

    The CC has the true meaning.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I am sure that in your heart you believe "it is in reverence for who that statues represents in my mind."

    But my dear friend, that is "Rationalization" and again, it does not matter what YOU are thinking it only matters what God has said that we should not do.

    IF you choose to do it, as I have said, please go right ahead and do so. You do not have to try and convince me of your actions.

    All I have done is state to you all what God has said. It is not up to me to approve of what you do or condemn you for doing it.
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    YOU amaze me! You state for us to "END THIS" and produce something else in the Scriptures except Ex. 20:4-5 as if it requires more than one Bible verse to constitute Bible truth.

    I did exactly as you asked and here YOU are still coming back for more. Why don't you just leave it alone as you said you wanted to and end it?????

    I certainly agree that idolatry is a mater of the heart. However to ignore and reject the obvious practice of the Catholic church today that bow before statues and icons, is a practice forbidden by God’s Word whether you choose to ignore it, spin it away or rationalize it. IT IS WHAT IT IS no matter how you try to explain it.

    The significance God places upon it is reflected in the fact that the first of the Ten Commandments refers to idolatry iin Ex. 20:4-5 AND the other texts I posted for you...........
    “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”.

    There is no middle of the road as you are trying to offer.

    Rev. 3:15-16............
    "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. "

    Instead of "Ending This" you are welcome to continue, but I must tell you that your argument is not with me at all. You are simply doing what you want to do in spite of what the clear Word of God says to not do.

    So then, DO IT but you can stop trying to rationalize it with me.
     
  15. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    God knew exactly what the people were like in those days.

    The above scripture was directly aimed at them. They would worship 'anything at all'. Be it above or below the earth!

    God had to give them specific instructions.

    Today, God can see who we are. That we know HIM. They did not know him.
     
  16. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    So, why are YOU judging the CC when in reality it is God that can see what you cannot? God can judge. He can see into our hearts.

    You are interpreting what you read incorrectly, as has been pointed out to you by a few now!
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I thought that we had ended our debate. But here you are again.

    Now please remember again that YOU have come seeking me out once again.

    You did not post what it is that you are referring to so I can only assume it was to the previouse conversation where I posted the Scripture and stated .........

    "What you are saying actually confirms the Scripture given by Paul in 2 Corth. 11:14....
    “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light”.

    My dear friend, people all over this world have the idea that Satan has cloven hoves, horns and is red with smoke coming out of his ears. That kind of silliness comes from Greek mythology where the god Pan was portrayed as half animal and half man and was bowed down to and worshipped as Dionysus.

    Making Satan to be like Pan is not scriptural in any way what so ever, because Scripture describes Satan an ANGEL OF LIGHT. If he made himself visible today he would be of breathtaking beauty. He would be the prettiest woman you ever saw, or the most handsome man to ever live. He could be the coldest beer ever made.

    To that fact Paul goes on in the very next verse to say in 2 Corth. 11:15.............
    "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

    Now you asked me.................."You could be the very one deceived".

    But we must remember that Satan knows who is saved and who is not, and so do his agents described in the Bible as demons, principalities, and powers. They will never ever stop trying to temp us and deceive us.

    NOW why do you think that I quote so much Scripture???? You have never asked but now that I have asked you, why do you think so????

    It is because all men are sinners and we all are tempted and yes, we all can be deceived.......
    BUT THE WORD OF GOD CAN NOT BE TEMPTED, NEITHER CAN IT BE DECEIVED.

    While Satan has lost his grip on those written in the Book of Life, meaning he will not be spending eternity with us, his focus now changes to making us ineffective in the service of God.

    And may I say to you that that thought would apply to you as well.
     
  18. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    This was given by God specifically to the people of that time. They were very prone to worship ANYTHING!

    This is VERY obvious as God knows that no Catholic / Christian would ever make an image and worship it.

    Only you believe that Catholics do.
     
  19. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Me end the debate? Really? I came looking for you? Really?

    I agree, satan is a great deceiver. So be careful what you believe and who you judge.
     
  20. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Can you identify this for me?

    upload_2017-7-5_12-50-5.jpeg
     
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