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Featured Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by melody5697, May 22, 2017.

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  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I can see that the truth bothers you a great deal. Why do you keep responding to my posts?????

    Your thoughts are about as nonsensical as a child paining a picture and saying that is equal to a statue in a church.

    Come on! Use Scripture to validate your comments or they are nothing but opinions.
     
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    For goodness sakes. I do not mean to be rude and disrespectful, but if some of you people would spend some time in Bible study instead of on the internet we would not have these kinds of questions.

    And before you post a challenge to me, I apologize in advance for such a comment but really!!!!!

    The situation you referred to is in Numbers 21 and the people again got discouraged, and in their unbelief they murmured against Moses for bringing them into the wilderness. They had already forgotten that it was their own sin that caused them to be there, and they tried to blame Moses for it. As a judgment against the people for their sin, God sent poisonous serpents into the camp, and people began to die. This showed the people that they were the ones in sin, and they came to Moses to confess that sin and ask for God's mercy. When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed.

    God was teaching the people something about faith. It is totally illogical to think that looking at a bronze image could heal anyone from snakebite, but that is exactly what God told them to do. It took an act of faith in God's plan for anyone to be healed, and the serpent on the stick was a reminder of their sin which brought about their suffering. There is no connection between this serpent and the serpent which Satan spoke through in the Garden of Eden. This serpent was symbolic of the serpents God used to chastise the people for their unbelief and it was not an object of worship but one of judgment.

    A couple of additional lessons are taught in the Bible regarding this bronze serpent. The people did get healed when they looked at the serpent, and the image was kept for many years. Many years later, when the Israelites were in the Promised Land, the serpent became an object of worship (2 Kings 18:4). This shows how easy it is for us to take the things of God and twist them into idolatry. We must never worship the tools or the people God chooses to use, but always bring the honor and glory to God alone.
     
  3. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    You think the bronze serpent was about having the people trust in God instead of logic?
    These were not modern day university students
    These were pre-modern tribal people who just spent a few generations in superstitious pagan Egypt
    They did not have a modern, or even an Ancient Greek, understanding of logic, your explanation is anachronistic

    You are correct, it was latter turned into an idol and had to be destroyed
     
  4. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    It is exactly the same kind of stupid argument that you are making. You are reading the text to a literal extreme, while avoiding the overall context and intent of the passage.

    I am glad that you agree that your own approach to the interpretation of Scripture is stupid.

    But I am not your enemy nor your judge.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  5. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Because I enjoy pointing out the errors of anti-Catholics.

    You have already been provided with Scripture, and your inability to interpret Scripture correctly has been demonstrated time and time over. But this is to be expected when one man is audacious enough to think that his private interpretation of Scripture trumps all of Christian history.
     
  6. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    You are missing the point. God used a PHYSICAL object (which is anathema to Protestants) for His purposes. The bronze serpent foreshadows Christ on the cross and the healing power therein. The sinful use of the bronze serpent does not cancel out it's original good use, which was just looked at, not worshiped. I think the bronze serpent is a strong argument against radical Protestant iconoclasm.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I do not agree with your opinion and I will try to give you the Bible teaching of this event.

    In John's Gospel, Jesus Christ himself refers to this incident with Moses and the bronze serpent. In John 3:14-15, Jesus tells Nicodemus.........
    "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

    The point in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus is that he came into the world to save a world that was already condemned, and that this salvation comes through him being "lifted up." The world, and us in it, are "condemned already" due to the sin of Adam and Eve, and Jesus saves us through his death on the cross (i.e. he was "lifted up"). All who look on Christ in faith receive this redemption from death; those who do not are not condemned by Christ, because they were already condemned due to sin.

    Sin came into the world through the serpent, Satan, and now here in Numbers the people are suffering the consequences of sin, namely death; they are "condemned already" (Numbers 21:6-7).

    Christ interprets the event in Numbers in light of what he came to do; he came to die by being raised up on the cross in order to save people who were "condemned already" by the serpent Satan and the sin he brought into the world. So, what happens in Numbers points forward to what Christ was coming to do on the cross for all people.
     
  8. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You said..........
    "You think the bronze serpent was about having the people trust in God instead of logic?"

    God was teaching the people something about faith. It is totally illogical to think that looking at a bronze image could heal anyone from snakebite, but that is exactly what God told them to do. It took an act of faith in God's plan for anyone to be healed, and the serpent on the stick was a reminder of their sin which brought about their suffering. There is no connection between this serpent and the serpent which Satan spoke through in the Garden of Eden. This serpent was symbolic of the serpents God used to chastise the people for their unbelief.
     
  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You have missed the point as do most others. I am not anti-Catholic but instead I am pro Jesus and Jesus only.

    I am pro Bible and not Catholic traditions.

    As for providing me with Scriptures.....that has not happened and can not happen. But just so that you can prove your statement, will you one more time provide the Scriptures which confirm..............

    1. Mary was a perpetual virgin before and AFTER the incarnation of Jesus.
    2. Repeat the Rosary.
    3. Purgatory.
    4. Mary was sinless.
    5. Bowing down to graven images.

    That is only 5 Catholic teachings and you should have no problem posting the Bible Scriptures which validate those Catholic teachings.

    I eagerly await your correction of my audaciousness and stupidity.
     
  10. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    >>1. Mary was a perpetual virgin before and AFTER the incarnation of Jesus.
    John 19:25-27.

    >>2. Repeat the Rosary.
    Luke 1:26-45, Matthew 26:36-46, Psalm 136.

    >>3. Purgatory.
    2 Maccabees 12:38-46; Revelation 21:27; Matthew 12:32; 1 Corinthians 3:10-16.

    >>4. Mary was sinless.
    Luke 1:28, Matthew 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

    5. Bowing down to graven images.
    Exodus 20:4-6.

    You are most welcome.
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the time to post your verses and for the opportunity to show the Bible answers. Now lets see if they say what you THINK and have been told that they say.

    1. Mary was a virgin before and after the incarnation of Jesus.
    You said and posted:

    John 19:25-27................
    "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."

    And of course when we read the exact words of the text you provided, THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE WORD THAT VALIDATE YOUR CLAIM OF PERTETUAL VIRGINITY MARY.

    I would venture to say that you and most Catholic believers do not even know where the idea of Pertetual Virginity came from, or you would have already posted your thoughts.

    Allow me to say to you that the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary comes from a dubious apocryphal book written well after the New Testament. The book is called the Infancy Gospel of James, The Protoevangelium of James, or sometimes simply Protoevangelium, and it is estimated to have been written in the middle part of the second century.

    The Protoevangelium of James is like other forgeries trying to capitalize on an apostle. James, the half-brother of Jesus, was elevated to an apostle after he saw the resurrected Savior in Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 15:7. So some people thought using his name would give some much needed credibility to the book. However, the church rightly recognized this book was not from the Apostle James. The early church father Origen wrote a commentary on Matthew in which he rejected The Protoevangelium of James as spurious and affirmed Mary had other children.

    2. The "Rosary".
    You posted.........Luke 1:26-45, Matthew 26:36-46, Psalm 136.

    Now those verses are way too many to be listed here, but when I read ALL of them again, what I found is that the word ROSARY is NOT FOUND. Additionally there is no suggestion of such a practice to be found.

    3. Purgatory.
    You listed.......2 Maccabees 12:38-46; Revelation 21:27; Matthew 12:32; 1 Corinthians 3:10-16.

    Of course Maccabees IS NOT A BOOK FOUND IN THE BIBLE so it is rejected out of hand.

    Rev. 21:27.........
    "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life."

    Now when we read that we also see that, that verse is AFTER the 1000 year rule of Christ on the earth and is chronologically right before the New heaven AND nEW EARTH. It is a description of the eternal state for all who have believed upon the Lord Jesus and when you read it, there is again NOT ONE SINGLE WORD THAT READ PURGATORY OR A MENTION OF SUCH A WORD.

    4. Mary was sinless.
    Luke 1:28, Matthew 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

    Luke 1:28.......
    "And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”.

    SINLESS. Nope! It is not there is it??
    “The angel, however, never said that Mary was ‘full of grace’. This Roman Catholic translation is based on the Latin texts. Translations from the original Greek read ‘Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you’ (Luke 1:28). God favored Mary by choosing her to bear His Son, not by preserving her from Adam’s sin. God blessed Mary ‘among women’ (Luke 1:28 KJV), not above women.”

    Revelation 22:21.......
    "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you ALL. Amen."

    NOPE. Nothing there about the sinlessness of Mary. ALL means ALL believers who will share eternity together.

    Matthew 1:1.......
    "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham".

    Is that what you think that verse says?????? NOPE. Sinless Mary is not there.

    5. Bowing down to graven images.
    Exodus 20:4-6.........
    You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.

    That is something I have posted over and over. THANK YOU for agreeing with me as you have just proved my comments for all to see.

    If you would like to continue with this I am always available.

    Maybe the next one to prove can be where in the Bible does it say that bishops are to be un-married.
     
  12. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Well, those are your interpretations, and I reject them. I interpret the verses to support Catholic faith and practice. If you think that I am going to waste my time debating them endlessly with you, you are mistaken.

    And one of your arguments is that the word "Rosary" is not found in Scripture? That is a plain stupid argument. It is not to be taken seriously.

    And the Deuterocanonical books are the inspired word of God. You do not even know what the Bible is, and the only reason why you know that the 27 books of the New Testament are the inspired word of God is because the Catholic Church told you so. So She has authority over you, whether you accept it or not.

    But I am neither your enemy nor your judge.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    It is NOT a matter of anyone's interpretation my dear friend.

    The doctrine you support and the Scriptures you posted DO NOT validate your understanding....period.
    You simply do not know the Scriptures and it shows.

    Personally I do not care whether you take any time with me or not. Actually it was YOU who engaged me and tried to prove Catholic dogma and now when I ask you to prove your comments with Scripture you post Bible Scriptures that have nothing to do with what you said.

    You simply got caught caught saying silly things and now you have to go the personal attack road.
    I would suggest that you spend more time reading the Bible and less time trying to prove things that can not be proven to me.

    WHY is questioning you on the Rosary stupid????? The Catholic church teaches it as a church doctrine. Every priest will say to the repentant sinner..........
    "Say 10 Hail Maries and go to church on Sunday".

    All I asked you was..........."Where in the Scriptures is that directive"?
    It should not be a problem for anyone to answer that question EXCEPT if it is not found in the Bible at all.

    No problem for me as I am not the enemy. I am just an old country boy who is a messenger of Bible truth and it is tearing you up!!!

    Since you say you do not want to waste any more time with me..........
    May the Lord bless you abundantly!
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  14. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    No, you do not even know what the Bible is, let alone what the Bible means.

    You asked for Scripture, you got Scripture. And they most certainly support the Catholic faith. I never promised you a lengthy debate. And since you do not care whether I take time with you or not, you should be perfectly fine with that.

    I have provided you everything that you need to see the truth. So you can choose to educate yourself, or remain in error. That is entirely up to you, but I have already spent as much time as I desire debating with you.

    I made no personal attacks against you in my previous post. Of course everyone knows that the word "Rosary" is not in Scripture. The argument you made was stupid. That is not a personal attack. That is just the plain fact of the matter.

    So is the fact that you do not even know what the Bible is, and would have no idea that the 27 books of the New Testament are the inspired word of God, unless the Catholic Church told you.

    Every verse of Scripture that you quoted is the Bible truth, I will grant you that.

    And if you think it is tearing me up, that is perfectly fine by me. I am not going to lose any sleep over your erroneous conclusions.
     
  15. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Major1

    You seem to have a very strong disbelief / hatred for all things Catholic. Much like Scott Hahn and Steven Ray used to. But they, being great scholars and world renown theologians realised after a lot of research, prayer etc that the CC was indeed 100% correct in its teachings etc. They despised all things Catholic, much like you my friend.

    You know, I am sure God could see the good they could spread across the world so showed them the true way. Yes, the Catholic way.

    Please, pick up Scotts book, Home Sweet Rome or check out Steves website or books and you will see all the answers, scripturally for your questionable views on the CC.

    My friend, you are very much stuck in your 'literal' / 'blinkered' view of scripture. Like you said, the word Rosary is not in the Bible, much like the words Sola Scripture.

    John did say in his Gospel that there would not be enough
    Books in the world to record all the teachings of Jesus. So, it makes perfect sense that all the Apostles knew a heck of a lot more than what is written in the Gospels and through Sacred Tradition lots of those teachings etc have been handed down through and by the CC.

    The Holy Spirit continued and continues to teach. Those teachings didn't or don't stop when the cover of the Bible is closed shut!

    Blessings to you my friend.
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Good news for sure.

    I would recommend that you actually read the Scriptures you posted as NOT A SINGLE one supports any conclusion you spoke of.....NOT ONE!

    Not only didn't the Scriptures you used support your conclusion they did not even suggest what you stated.

    IF you choose to believe that they do then God bless you. I will not argue your ability to believe as you choose.

    I would however like to ask you one question. Have you been "Born Again"?
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Somewhere we are not communicating. I say to you for about the 3rd time I think, I do not hate any Catholic person or for that matter any one else.

    If you will just take the time to look at what I have said, I have stated what the Bible teaches as compared to the Catholic teachings. If you choose to believe the Catholic traditions over the Bible teaching, then it is absolutely YOUR choice to do so. I have NOT sought out any one person whatsoever and I have only responded when someone has sought me out with a post or asked for a response.
    Because some have not liked what I have said, they have become angry and personal.

    I have NOT condemned you or any other Catholic believer. If have not made any personal attacks and I have not "Flamed" anyone. If I had I am sure the mods would have already banned me as again, I am sure someone has already "Reported" these conversations.

    If you or anyone does not want to read any comments from me then of course the thing to do is not to ask me a question or an opinion on what the Bible says or challenge Bible doctrine with Catholic traditions.

    I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else. IF you would like to debate, on converse intellectually with me, I would be glad to do so.

    If anyone wants to be personal or confrontational, then please do not seek me out.
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Allow me to ask you a question. If sola Scriptura cannot be the correct method of determining truth because of the religious division among churches that claim to use sola Scriptura, then does this not also disqualify the Roman Catholic & Orothodox churches method of using tradition, since they are divided against themselves.
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Two questions in response to you post.

    1. Name one sure way or method, that a new believer in Christ, can know that the Roman Catholic church is the one true church.

    2. Are you "Born Again"?
     
  20. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Divided in a fraction of the amount compared to how you see scripture and the CC.
     
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