Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

[kepha31]

That is not what I wrote. I wrote that Catholics are not limited to Scripture.

I know a Dei Verbum when I see one.
The next chapter gives guidelines for interpretation. Paragraph 11-13

 

[bbbbbbb]

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Thank you. This is genuinely appreciated.

Based on this section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church do you personally think of Purgatory as a place of intense torture and suffering similar to the fires of hell, but limited in duration?

 

[kepha31]

Thank you. This is genuinely appreciated.

Based on this section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church do you personally think of Purgatory as a place of intense torture and suffering similar to the fires of hell, but limited in duration?

It's not a place but a state of being. Nobody knows, we can only speculate on what it's like. There is hope there; there is no hope in hell.

25 Bible Passages Indicating or Suggesting Purgatory

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's not a place but a state of being. Nobody knows, we can only speculate on what it's like. There is hope there; there is no hope in hell.

25 Bible Passages Indicating or Suggesting Purgatory

Thank you. I observe that, as the title states, none of the 25 Bible passages actually teach anything concerning Purgatory, but can be interpreted to hint at the possibility of Purgatory. Thus, sincere Catholics can speculate to their heart's content regarding this illusory "state of being".

Is this "state of being" temporal (conditioned by time) or unconditioned by time?

 

[PeaceB]

Thank you. This is genuinely appreciated.

Based on this section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church do you personally think of Purgatory as a place of intense torture and suffering similar to the fires of hell, but limited in duration?

I do not have a strong personal belief concerning that question, but if I were forced to speculate, I would probably given an answer that is similar to C.S. Lewis's view of hell.

Lewis said something along the lines that the love that brings eternal joy to those in Heaven, is the same love that causes extreme suffering for people in Hell. The difference is that people in Heaven love God, while people in Hell reject God, and experience His love as some sort of torture. Kind of like how two people can be at the same exact party, one person having a great time, and another person being completely miserable.

Again, if I had to speculate, I might venture to say something similar concerning purgatory. If a person needs surgery to remove a body part that is cancerous, the surgery itself may feel like torture, although it is something that the person needs and ultimately saves his life. Likewise, when you were a child and your mother had to take a splinter out of your finger, she would take a needle and put it through fire, in order to purify the needle before using it. One might think of purgatory as something along those lines, it is a purifying fire that a person must experience, which burns away everything that is not of God. I would not call it torture, but it may feel like torture, to the person who is forced to give up things that he is attached to, such as the love of money, power, etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I do not have a strong personal belief concerning that question, but if I were forced to speculate, I would probably given an answer that is similar to C.S. Lewis's view of hell.

Lewis said something along the lines that the love that brings eternal joy to those in Heaven, is the same love that causes extreme suffering for people in Hell. The difference is that people in Heaven love God, while people in Hell reject God, and experience His love as some sort of torture. Kind of like how two people can be at the same exact party, one person having a great time, and another person being completely miserable.

Again, if I had to speculate, I might venture to say something similar concerning purgatory. If a person needs surgery to remove a body part that is cancerous, the surgery itself may feel like torture, although it is something that the person needs and ultimately saves his life. Likewise, when you were a child and your mother had to take a splinter out of your finger, she would take a needle and put it through fire, in order to purify the needle before using it. One might think of purgatory as something along those lines, it is a purifying fire that a person must experience, which burns away everything that is not of God. I would not call it torture, but it may feel like torture, to the person who is forced to give up things that he is attached to, such as the love of money, power, etc.

Thanks again. Is there a particular reason that God can't or won't forgive some sins even if they are confessed and repented of?

 

[PeaceB]

Thanks again. Is there a particular reason that God can't or won't forgive some sins even if they are confessed and repented of?

Being forgiven of a sin does not necessarily mean that one does not have to suffer punishment (whether a cleansing punishment or otherwise). Take the case of David as an example:

11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackclothb on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.”

19 David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked.

“Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”
​

Punishment can serve many purposes, for example, helping the person who has done wrong to understand the full gravity of the sin he has committed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Being forgiven of a sin does not necessarily mean that one does not have to suffer punishment (whether a cleansing punishment or otherwise). Take the case of David as an example:

11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackclothb on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.”

19 David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked.

“Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”
​

Punishment can serve many purposes, for example, helping the person who has done wrong to understand the full gravity of the sin he has committed.

So, it comes down to the belief that God chooses not to forgive some sins, but forgives others despite the genuine repentance and penitence of the sinner. What you make of I John 1:9?

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[PeaceB]

So, it comes down to the belief that God chooses not to forgive some sins, but forgives others despite the genuine repentance and penitence of the sinner. What you make of I John 1:9?

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To clarify, when a person confesses and repents of his sins, his sins are forgiven. An example of the confession rite is set forth below:

Rite of Individual Penance

PRAYER OF THE PENITENT AND ABSOLUTION

45. The priest then asks the penitent to express his sorrow, which the penitent may do in these or similar words:


My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Our Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us. In his name, my God, have mercy.
​

ABSOLUTION
46. Then the priest extends his hands over the penitent's head (or at least extends his right hand) and says:


God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, + and of the Holy Spirit. The penitent answers: Amen.

PROCLAMATION OF PRAISE OF GOD AND DISMISSAL

47. After the absolution, the priest continues:

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. The penitent concludes: His mercy endures for ever.

Then the priest dismisses the penitent who has been reconciled, saying:


The Lord has freed you from your sins. Go in peace.
​

As I wrote above, just because God forgives a person from a sin, does not mean that God will not then punish the person for the wrong that he has done. For example, God forgave David for his adultery and murder, but still punished David, after forgiving him.

I do not know if the Church reads the verse this way, but at first glance it does not seem unreasonable to think that "cleanse us from all unrighteousness" could refer to something such as the punishment that David suffered, a punishment or penance that a person undergoes in this life, or the "cleansing fire" of purgatory.

 

[Wolf_Says]

So, it comes down to the belief that God chooses not to forgive some sins, but forgives others despite the genuine repentance and penitence of the sinner. What you make of I John 1:9?

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That verse has nothing to do with punishment though. If you are a father and your kid say broke some china or a window and he apologized(confessed) to you. Of course youll forgive him, but would there really be no punishment? Or will you ground him or make him work to pay for the replacement?

Forgiveness doesnt mean there wont be any punishment.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To clarify, when a person confesses and repents of his sins, his sins are forgiven. An example of the confession rite is set forth below:

Rite of Individual Penance

PRAYER OF THE PENITENT AND ABSOLUTION

45. The priest then asks the penitent to express his sorrow, which the penitent may do in these or similar words:


My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Our Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us. In his name, my God, have mercy.​

ABSOLUTION
46. Then the priest extends his hands over the penitent's head (or at least extends his right hand) and says:


God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, + and of the Holy Spirit. The penitent answers: Amen.​

PROCLAMATION OF PRAISE OF GOD AND DISMISSAL

47. After the absolution, the priest continues:

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. The penitent concludes: His mercy endures for ever.

Then the priest dismisses the penitent who has been reconciled, saying:


The Lord has freed you from your sins. Go in peace.​

As I wrote above, just because God forgives a person from a sin, does not mean that God will not then punish the person for the wrong that he has done. For example, God forgave David for his adultery and murder, but still punished David, after forgiving him.

So, if I commit a sin and confess it and God forgives me, then He goes ahead and punishes me anyhow. That means that He has hardly forgiven me and no amount of confession or penance will eliminate God's punishment. Thus, the only difference between a person who does not confess his sin and one who does is that God might punish the one somewhat more than the other. Both face the wrath of God.

 

[Wolf_Says]

So, if I commit a sin and confess it and God forgives me, then He goes ahead and punishes me anyhow. That means that He has hardly forgiven me and no amount of confession or penance will eliminate God's punishment. Thus, the only difference between a person who does not confess his sin and one who does is that God might punish the one somewhat more than the other. Both face the wrath of God.

You are confusing forgiveness and punishment.

If you confess your sins, clearly you know you did wrong and are seeking forgiveness. You know that you are not in a state of Grace.

If you do not confess, clearly in your mind you did nothing wrong! Even if you say committed adultery, you dont seek forgiveness.

Punishment is something we all will suffer because we all sin. As I stated above, even though a dad forgives his son, he still punishes him to teach his son.

 

[PeaceB]

So, if I commit a sin and confess it and God forgives me, then He goes ahead and punishes me anyhow. That means that He has hardly forgiven me and no amount of confession or penance will eliminate God's punishment. Thus, the only difference between a person who does not confess his sin and one who does is that God might punish the one somewhat more than the other. Both face the wrath of God.

Article 6. Whether the debt of punishment remains after sin?
Objection 1. It would seem that there remains no debt of punishment after sin. For if the cause be removed the effect is removed. But sin is the cause of the debt of punishment. Therefore, when the sin is removed, the debt of punishment ceases also.

Objection 2. Further, sin is removed by man returning to virtue. Now a virtuous man deserves, not punishment, but reward. Therefore, when sin is removed, the debt of punishment no longer remains.

Objection 3. Further, "Punishments are a kind of medicine" (Ethic. ii, 3). But a man is not given medicine after being cured of his disease. Therefore, when sin is removed the debt of punishment does not remain.

On the contrary, It is written (2 Samuel 12:13-14): "David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Nevertheless because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme . . . the child that is born to thee shall die." Therefore a man is punished by God even after his sin is forgiven: and so the debt of punishment remains, when the sin has been removed.

I answer that, Two things may be considered in sin: the guilty act, and the consequent stain. Now it is evident that in all actual sins, when the act of sin has ceased, the guilt remains; because the act of sin makes man deserving of punishment, in so far as he transgresses the order of Divine justice, to which he cannot return except he pay some sort of penal compensation, which restores him to the equality of justice; so that, according to the order of Divine justice, he who has been too indulgent to his will, by transgressing God's commandments, suffers, either willingly or unwillingly, something contrary to what he would wish. This restoration of the equality of justice by penal compensation is also to be observed in injuries done to one's fellow men. Consequently it is evident that when the sinful or injurious act has ceased there still remains the debt of punishment.

But if we speak of the removal of sin as to the stain, it is evident that the stain of sin cannot be removed from the soul, without the soul being united to God, since it was through being separated from Him that it suffered the loss of its brightness, in which the stain consists, as stated above (I-II:86:1). Now man is united to God by his will. Wherefore the stain of sin cannot be removed from man, unless his will accept the order of Divine justice, that is to say, unless either of his own accord he take upon himself the punishment of his past sin, or bear patiently the punishment which God inflicts on him; and in both ways punishment avails for satisfaction. Now when punishment is satisfactory, it loses somewhat of the nature of punishment: for the nature of punishment is to be against the will; and although satisfactory punishment, absolutely speaking, is against the will, nevertheless in this particular case and for this particular purpose, it is voluntary. Consequently it is voluntary simply, but involuntary in a certain respect, as we have explained when speaking of the voluntary and the involuntary (I-II:6:6). We must, therefore, say that, when the stain of sin has been removed, there may remain a debt of punishment, not indeed of punishment simply, but of satisfactory punishment.

Reply to Objection 1. Just as after the act of sin has ceased, the stain remains, as stated above (I-II:86:2), so the debt of punishment also can remain. But when the stain has been removed, the debt of punishment does not remain in the same way, as stated.

Reply to Objection 2. The virtuous man does not deserve punishment simply, but he may deserve it as satisfactory: because his very virtue demands that he should do satisfaction for his offenses against God or man.

Reply to Objection 3. When the stain is removed, the wound of sin is healed as regards the will. But punishment is still requisite in order that the other powers of the soul be healed, since they were so disordered by the sin committed, so that, to wit, the disorder may be remedied by the contrary of that which caused it. Moreover punishment is requisite in order to restore the equality of justice, and to remove the scandal given to others, so that those who were scandalized at the sin many be edified by the punishment, as may be seen in the example of David quoted above.

 

[PeaceB]

You are confusing forgiveness and punishment.

If you confess your sins, clearly you know you did wrong and are seeking forgiveness. You know that you are not in a state of Grace.

If you do not confess, clearly in your mind you did nothing wrong! Even if you say committed adultery, you dont seek forgiveness.

Punishment is something we all will suffer because we all sin. As I stated above, even though a dad forgives his son, he still punishes him to teach his son.

Following up on this example, "wrath" for example, might be something like if the father kicked his son out of the house to live on the streets, and refused to speak to him again for the rest of his life. That is quite a bit different from the father saying "I forgive you son, but so that you learn your lesson, I am going to make you mow the neighbor's lawn every week for the rest of the summer."

 

[PeaceB]

So, if I commit a sin and confess it and God forgives me, then He goes ahead and punishes me anyhow. That means that He has hardly forgiven me and no amount of confession or penance will eliminate God's punishment. Thus, the only difference between a person who does not confess his sin and one who does is that God might punish the one somewhat more than the other. Both face the wrath of God.

It somewhat sounds as if you want a "get out of jail free" card of some sort, but correct me if I am wrong. As Aquinas notes: "The virtuous man does not deserve punishment simply, but he may deserve it as satisfactory: because his very virtue demands that he should do satisfaction for his offenses against God or man."

As for "That means that He has hardly forgiven me and no amount of confession or penance will eliminate God's punishment", the Church has indulgences that can reduce or even completely eliminate the punishment. They are on sale on eBay for the discounted price of $9.99, as our ex-Catholic friend @JayW loves to point out.

Good afternoon.

 

[Halbhh]

The doctrine of Purgatory is not to be found in any of the books of the Bible, Catholic or Protestant.

While we are on the topic of Purgatory, can you tell me more about it? Old Catholics believe it to be a place of great torment and suffering, for Catholics only, and limited in time until all of the individual's temporal sins have been purged through corporal punishment. However, I have heard many Catholics today, including some priests, state that Purgatory is nothing more than a refreshing shower to cleanse the Catholic of his temporal sins prior to entering heaven and that there is no time element to it.

Which view is the true view?

Only a week or three ago, it was put to me that Jesus's accounting of the rich man and Lazarus, in which the rich man comes to be in "Hades" wasn't a parable, which I had not considered, and while I know that question (is it a parable) by itself is not even important at all, what is significant past the key lesson about the consequence of ignoring the poor, hungry, needy, after the crucial lesson the story is meant to teach us, there is also the thing "Hades". Christ used this word. More, we learn from the Revelation to John that Hades will later, in a time to come, be itself cast into the lake of fire, along with death also, and they will presumably there be destroyed (only those already given immortality could continue to exist in the lake of fire I think)....

But, before that time comes, those in Hades are evidently suffering, in this story of Lazarus and the rich man. And that reminds us of the idea of 'purgatory'. So perhaps there is something here to learn more about. Though I trust both of us don't intend to visit Hades. Instead, it is of meaning in how it may help some that are concerned with the abstraction (human idea) of disproportionate punishment. It seems to answer that. For this reason only, it's of interest to me. Perhaps in Hades is proportional punishment before those that will 'perish' are 'destroyed' in the "second death" (which I take to mean just what it sounds like it means, plainly).

 

[Halbhh]

The true view is precisely what Jesus said in the Gospels, in the parable of the unforgiving servant. He said that just as the king did to the unforgiving servant - throw him in prison for torment until the last penny was paid - God would do the same to you if you are not forgiving of others.

"Until" is an important word. It means "Up to a certain point". It is not a synonym for "forever".

So, Jesus stated that sinners are forgiven their sins by God, by the sinners' own forgiveness of the sins committed by others against them. Indeed, at Jesus' behest, we all pray for exactly that standard of judgment every time we pray the Lord's prayer: "...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".

Jesus described the place where those who die with unforgiven sin go. He did so a few times. He called it "Gehenna" (and although Gehenna is not in the Old Testament at all, the Jews knew what he meant because of their traditions. Gehenna is Jewish Purgatory - it's not in the Bible, but it is in the Jewish traditions, then and to this day - Gehenna is Jewish Purgatory, it is NOT Christian "Hell", which never appears in the Bible and is a fiction the way it is described).

He described Gehenna - parched, dry, a place where there are fires and fumes and decay. The rich man was suffering there, looking across the black chasm at Lazarus, who was with Abraham in Gan Eden (Jewish Paradise).

So, that is what Purgatory is. Purgatory is Gehenna, just exactly as Jesus described it.

When you die, you do not go immediately to "Heaven" (nobody actually EVER goes to Heaven). Nor do you go to Hell (nobody actually ever goes to Hell either). Your body falls back to dust. Your spirit (not your soul - your soul is the unity of your body and your spirit) proceeds into Sheol (Hebrew), Greek Hades - the Underworld. There, if you have died in a state of grace, you proceed directly to Gan Eden, Paradise in Greek. If you are not in a state of grace, if you have unforgiven sins, you proceeded into Gehenna, which is Purgatory, where you remain for an indeterminate period of cleansing, "until the last penny is paid".

Jewish tradition systematizes the time spent in Gehenna - Catholic tradition does not, other than to note that it is proportional. Jewish and Catholic tradition both recognize that the prayers of the living in remembrance of their spirits of the dead, may result in clemency.

In any case, the spirit remains in Gehenna UNTIL the last penny of due debt is paid, and then - assuming the world has not yet ended - proceeds to Gan Eden.

At the end of the world, ever tomb is opened and all of the spirits are called forth from Gehenna and Gan Eden, from Purgatory and Paradise, back into bodies. This is the Resurrection. It is immediately followed by final judgment. Those who pass that may enter into one of the gates of the City of God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down OUT of Heaven to Earth, but is not actually IN Heaven. This is "Heaven", this City of God on Earth (but really it's not Heaven - it comes down out of Heaven to the new earth.).

Those who fail judgment are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the second death. If one wishes to call the Lake of Fire "Hell", one can, but the Scriptures don't.

If one wants to call Gehenna "Hell", as the Scriptures sometimes do, that's ok, but then it must be recognized that Hell is not eternal - Purgatory is Hell in that case, so just call it Gehenna, as Jesus did, and be done with it.

The problem with "Hell" is that it conflates four different things, and add assumptions that come from Norse paganism but that are not actually revealed.

The problem with "Heaven" is that the word is actually "Sky", and Jesus did not reveal that people go to live forever in the sky, but that the City of God comes OUT of the sky to the remade earth, and people live THERE after the Resurrection.

That is the Biblical Gehenna, and City of God, and sky, and Paradise, and the pre-resurrection parts of that mesh with the Jewish traditions of Gehenna and Gan Eden. Jesus was not giving a new revelation regarding Gehenna or paying the debt of unforgiven sin there. Everybody knew what he meant then.

The City of God/End of the World/Resurrection/Final Judgment - these are new revelations, and they put a final end to both Paradise/Gan Eden AND Purgatory/Gehenna, but calling forth all spirits, back into bodies, for a final judgment in the flesh.

There, that answers your question.

Catholic terminology generally conflates Gehenna, the Lake of Fire and Hell, and conflates Paradise, the City of God, and Heaven. Catholic terminology also generally conflates spirit and soul.

All of those conflations do not obscure the message: which is what you have to do to avoid the bad places and get to the good places. What gets where and when is a bit muddled in the standard way of talking, but the ultimate destination and how to get there is what it is all about, not each paving stone on the path. And Catholicism speaks expertly on that, because it has been revealed.

Unknown stuff that isn't revealed, such as the exact inner workings of the Trinity, are areas of speculation for everybody, Catholics included.

This was interesting, just to hear that's a Catholic view. I like it how you were friendly in your tone also. Kudos.

 

[kepha31]

So, if I commit a sin and confess it and God forgives me, then He goes ahead and punishes me anyhow.

No, He doesn't.

That means that He has hardly forgiven me and no amount of confession or penance will eliminate God's punishment.

Wrong. Punishment and consequences are not the same thing.

Thus, the only difference between a person who does not confess his sin and one who does is that God might punish the one somewhat more than the other. Both face the wrath of God.

Wrong. We all have an opportunity to be forgiven and pay the consequences IN THIS LIFE, and what consequences are not paid in this life is paid in the next. There is no purgation for those full of sanctifying grace, they go straight to heaven, and few of us will die in such a state of perfection. Purgatory is the meeting point between God's perfect justice and mercy. The dichotomy of heaven or hell denies both.

 

[Halbhh]

God has touched me, talked to me, healed me miraculously, sent an angel to rescue me. He did this for me, a Catholic. What do you offer that is equal to that?

That's quite wonderful. You may be interested to know that I was not in the "Catholic" church though I think instead in the catholic Church, when most or all this same list has also was been my experience, include seeming impossible 1-second prayer rescue from likely death or severe injury. I woke up without a bruise. I feel it's better for you to instead remember the wording about not knowing where the boundaries of the Church are, of course, since that's His domain. Put another way, He is the one who has the monopoly.

 

[JacksBratt]

You are confusing forgiveness and punishment.

If you confess your sins, clearly you know you did wrong and are seeking forgiveness. You know that you are not in a state of Grace.

If you do not confess, clearly in your mind you did nothing wrong! Even if you say committed adultery, you dont seek forgiveness.

Punishment is something we all will suffer because we all sin. As I stated above, even though a dad forgives his son, he still punishes him to teach his son.

The forgiveness of our sins is for after death.

When we sin, we choose to suffer, in this life.

However, the forgiveness from our sins, that Christ gives, is eternal life. There is no punishment after forgiveness as our sins are washed away. All of them are remembered not.

Hebrews 8:12King James Version (KJV)
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.