Catholics only :This Parish in Minneapolis is pretty much horrifying

[Filia Mariae]

Thousands of people coming to worship seems like at least one way Christ is honored while present through the Eucharist. Beyond that, I would have to stop by St. Joan of Arc to see what's there.

Whether they are coming to worship Christ in the real presence or be entertained by some illicit "guest speaker" making Scripture "relevant" is questionable.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Whether they are coming to worship Christ in the real presence or be entertained by some illicit "guest speaker" making Scripture "relevant" is questionable.

Perhaps, but I don't know their hearts, and neither do you.

 

[Filia Mariae]

Perhaps, but I don't know their hearts, and neither do you.

Nor do I pretend to. All I know is what they factually state that they are doing, much of which is in clear violation of Church teaching.

 

[Teshi]

If by unwelcoming you mean that cafeteria Catholicism is called for what it is, than yes.

No. I mean that people who conform with the undisputable teachings of the church but may disagree with some dominant posters on other issues, such as politics, or which order of the Mass is preferable, or whether it's okay to be a jerk to Muslims, or whatever, are ostracised. I know one member who quit CF altogether because of the nastiness with which people in OBOB treated her.

It's not a friendly place.

Much of the time, it is not a catholic place, I would venture to say.

When I joined, it was not as vicious as it is now.

 

[Filia Mariae]

No. I mean that people who conform with the undisputable teachings of the church but may disagree with some dominant posters on other issues, such as politics, or which order of the Mass is preferable, or whether it's okay to be a jerk to Muslims, or whatever, are ostracised. I know one member who quit CF altogether because of the nastiness with which people in OBOB treated her.

It's not a friendly place.

Much of the time, it is not a catholic place, I would venture to say.

When I joined, it was not as vicious as it is now.

I disagree and think that you are making vast statements about a large group of people that may be founded upon one or two people. Regardless, this is a matter of opinion and a waste of time.

Do you care to repsond to any of my responses to your accusations of libel and slander? (which were none too friendly themselves)

 

[Teshi]

How is celebrating the gay lifestyle not endorsing it? Please explain.



Please start reading the things I write instead if ignoring it. I SUGGESTED a particular support group for homosexuals. What they have is a social group affirming the legitmacy of the homosexual lifestyle.



Hence my link to
http://couragerc.net/

What is "the homosexual lifestyle"?

Where is your evidence that their social group says it is okay to have homosexual sexual contact?

Why is that the only gay support group acceptable under the guidelines of the Catechism?

Well here it is.



The 2003 document, “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,” states:

I was unable to locate this document in the Holy See's online library. Could you post a link, please?

[/QUOTE]

 

[Teshi]

I disagree and think that you are making vast statements about a large group of people that may be founded upon one or two people. Regardless, this is a matter of opinion and a waste of time.

Do you care to repsond to any of my responses to your accusations of libel and slander? (which were none too friendly themselves)

Slander is spoken and libel is written. I have no way of knowing whether you have slandered the congregation of St. Joan's. And you have not yet posted any proof that St. Joan's endorses homosexual sex or heretical doctrines, merely conjecture.

I am done with this thread. If it floats your boat to do so, I'm sure you'll manage to continue with the vitrol against people you've never met in a parish you've never been to without my aiding and abetting in giving you someone to rail against. Have fun.

 

[E-beth]

I think it is not real nice to trash a church that someone in the room is a member of, especially when you know this.

I mean, no one is forcing anyone to go to this particular church, so why offend someone who does?

Would you sit and talk about how nasty you think overweight people are with a 500 pound woman in the room and within earshot? Is that what our Lord would do?

 

[Filia Mariae]

What is "the homosexual lifestyle"?

Where is your evidence that their social group says it is okay to have homosexual sexual contact?

The homosexual lifestyle is one in which a person choose to engage in homosexual acts. This is kind of a surreal conversation to be honest....they blatantly provide social activities centered around homosexual relationships and you are asking where they say its okay? I mean....what do you want? If you sponsor activities based upon a given element (in this case homosexual relationships), you are endorsing that element.

Why is that the only gay support group acceptable under the guidelines of the Catechism?

Any support group which calls those struggling with same sex attraction to chastity is fine. Dignity does not. Dignity promotes the acceptance of homosexual acts within the church. Their own group at St. Joan's promotes gay adoption and gay families, to the detriment of innocent children.

I was unable to locate this document in the Holy See's online library. Could you post a link, please?

This was a statement made by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as a part of the document "Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons." The whole document can be accessed here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDfhomun.HTM

The paragraph in question is 7c.

As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.

Peace.

 

[Filia Mariae]

I think it is not real nice to trash a church that someone in the room is a member of, especially when you know this.

I mean, no one is forcing anyone to go to this particular church, so why offend someone who does?

Would you sit and talk about how nasty you think overweight people are with a 500 pound woman in the room and within earshot? Is that what our Lord would do?

CaDan entered the thread after it was started. The objective facts are that this parish a) claims to be Catholic while b)blatantly violating church teaching and leading souls astray.

When the temple of the Lord was profaned, Jesus didn't sit there and smile and be "tolerant." He got mad and literally turned tables over. If you're child was standing in the middle of the street with an oncoming truck, would you say "Now Johnny dear, maybe that's not a good idea, let's make a better choice"? Of course not, you would grab him out of harm's way regardless of whether or not he liked it or got upset. The people of St. Joan's are embracing what is objectively grave sin. It would not be loving or Christ like to turn a blind eye. I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but the immortal souls of people created in the image and likeness of God are at stake. Something needs to be done about this parish.

 

[Cat59]

Something needs to be done about this parish.

And when that happens, what will happen to these people?
Where will they go then?
Where does someone who is homosexual go, then?
The catechism is clear, yes, on how people are called to live, but they also call that people are treated with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. (quoted in full below.)
How should people who are struggling to lead the kind of life asked for by our church be treated?

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection

 

[Filia Mariae]

And when that happens, what will happen to these people?
Where will they go then?

Cat, I'm sorry if I sound snippy or rude, it is not my intent at all. But I am growing increasingly frustrated with this discussion, or lack thereof. I continue to make points which continue to be ignored by people who repeat the same things that have been addressed over and over and over.

I am not suggesting that ministry to those struggling with same-sex attraction should be abolished.

Where does someone who is homosexual go, then?

There is no reason this parish cannot embrace an orthodox ministry, like Courage:

http://couragerc.net

I am not aware of any others approved by the Church, but there may be. However, Dignity is not approved as it flies in the face of Catholic teaching.

The catechism is clear, yes, on how people are called to live, but they also call that people are treated with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. (quoted in full below.)
How should people who are struggling to lead the kind of life asked for by our church be treated?

I keep repeating myself. There is at least one orthodox ministry available. They also have the option of creating their own model for ministry, as long as it conforms to Church teaching. I NEVER suggested that they can't have a ministry to those struggling with same sex attraction. I said they can't approve of homosexual acts and adoption.

 

[Cat59]

Filia Mariae, I apologise if it seems I am not listening and if my post appeared to be an attack, it was not intended.
I have personal reasons for asking these questions which are ones that are largely on my mind at the moment. This is not just an academic debate for me at the moment but a very real life concern. They were questions directed not just at you, but at all of us really, as for people who are in this position, the isolation and difficulties faced are very real. It would be great if we could move beyond the debate about this parish to how we as the Church deal with this issue.
Courage, as I understand it, aims to help people with homosexual desires to lead a chaste life. I suppose my question is what do we do about people who consider themselves gay, cannot see themselves living a celibate life but still believe in and wish to remain part of the Church, however contradictory that may seem to others. It's a similar question to how should the Church treat people who are divorced and remarried, who use contraception on a regular basis, for example. I think I already know the answer from what has been said, but my concern was how do we deal with this in practice and how to we try and ensure people who feel unable to live up to what is been asked of them stay open to and in touch with the Church. I don't have an answer myself, nor do others that I have discussed this with. But what I will say is that this parish appears to be trying to address this, allbeit in a way that many here disagree with.
Cat

 

[Wolseley]

Heresy is rejection of Dogma. Not all wrong belief is heresy.

Almost. Canon 751 defines heresy as the "obstinate denial" of a truth "which must be believed with divine and catholic faith", or also "an obstinate doubt concerning the same".

IOW, if you even doubt the correctness of said truth, you are still engaging in heresy.

But I am growing increasingly frustrated with this discussion, or lack thereof. I continue to make points which continue to be ignored by people who repeat the same things that have been addressed over and over and over.

Now you know how George Bush feels.

 

[Auntie]

Homosexuality is wrong.

All the talking in the world won't make it right.

End of story.

 

[CaDan]

CaDan entered the thread after it was started. The objective facts are that this parish a) claims to be Catholic while b)blatantly violating church teaching and leading souls astray.

Objectivity is a slippery point to stand on. Very slippery.

 

[D'Ann]

And when that happens, what will happen to these people?
Where will they go then?
Where does someone who is homosexual go, then?
The catechism is clear, yes, on how people are called to live, but they also call that people are treated with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. (quoted in full below.)
How should people who are struggling to lead the kind of life asked for by our church be treated?

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection

I agree with you on this. We all struggle with sin. None of us are perfect. What a confusing time we live in. I understand the other points being made as well. My hope is that we embrace all people no matter what struggles each may have. I'm not condoning any sin... but I'm saying we are called to love and to embrace each other and to pray for each other.

If a person continues to be sinful and doesn't acknowledge that they are sinning and they try to get us to condone and/or approve of their sinfulness... that is different in that... even then, we still need to pray for them and love them and yes even embrace them... but with truth and prayer.

Although, they shouldn't receive the Eucharist until they confess and repent of their sins... as is required for all of us.

God's Peace,

Debbie

 

[higgs2]

I'd never heard about this church before until I read this thread and went to look at the web page using the link. It looks amazing! I know several people in that area who would love this church and I've sent them the link. I also will share it with some other friends on the web. Thank you to whoever found this, it is inspiring to read about such a community of believers.

 

[Filia Mariae]

That is one woman's opinion...but all the screaming and banging of fists and hating of homosexuals won't change the fact that they exist. And trying to whack someone over the head with your beliefs doesn't accomplish anything.

DanielsMommy,

It is the teaching of Christ's Church that homosexual acts (not persons) are instrinsically disordered. I realize you do not care what the Church says.However, this thread is NOT a debate about Catholic doctrine. It is a discussion regarding the issues surrounding this parished infidelity to Catholic doctrine. I am not the one who put the "Catholics Only" qualifier in the title. That was a mod, which is indicative of the fact that this is not the pace to debate Catholic doctrine. I certainly don't mind non-Catholics participating in the thread, but I do mind the thread being derailed into a discussion about the merits of Catholic doctrine which is not the issue in the first place.

WHy don't we all take a page from Jesus' book when it comes to dealing with others? Did he play whack-a-sinner and beat people up one side and down the other? No. Could he have? You bet. He chose a much more effective way -- leading by example. Loving people. Treating them like HUMANS.

Maybe we should try that, hmmmm???

Your continual accusations of others being unloving and hateful and treating others as less than human are unfounded and presumptious. Just as you advocate not judging, perhaps you should not judge myself or Auntie or anyone else.

Pax christi.

 

[Filia Mariae]

Filia Mariae, I apologise if it seems I am not listening and if my post appeared to be an attack, it was not intended.

It wasn't you I felt was attacking me and I'm sorry if I jumped down your throat...I'm just frustrated.

I have personal reasons for asking these questions which are ones that are largely on my mind at the moment. This is not just an academic debate for me at the moment but a very real life concern. They were questions directed not just at you, but at all of us really, as for people who are in this position, the isolation and difficulties faced are very real. It would be great if we could move beyond the debate about this parish to how we as the Church deal with this issue.

I think that discussion is a necessary and valuable one.

Courage, as I understand it, aims to help people with homosexual desires to lead a chaste life.

Yes. I've never been to a meeting or event as this is not something I struggle with and I think it would be entirely inappropriate to go as on "observer" but from their mission statement and what I understand yes.

I suppose my question is what do we do about people who consider themselves gay, cannot see themselves living a celibate life but still believe in and wish to remain part of the Church, however contradictory that may seem to others. It's a similar question to how should the Church treat people who are divorced and remarried, who use contraception on a regular basis, for example. I think I already know the answer from what has been said, but my concern was how do we deal with this in practice and how to we try and ensure people who feel unable to live up to what is been asked of them stay open to and in touch with the Church. I don't have an answer myself, nor do others that I have discussed this with. But what I will say is that this parish appears to be trying to address this, allbeit in a way that many here disagree with.
Cat

I think your question is a legitimate one...and a difficult one. One thing that I think we need to be doing as a Church is presenting the Church's teaching on sexuality in a more effective manner throughout the life span in developmentally appropriate ways. Simply telling someone that their desires are disordered is unlikely to make them see the truth of this and is probably going to make them hear "There's something wrong with you, what you want is wrong and you need to suppress it." Suppression never works as a long term strategy.

What we need is an authentic presentation of the beauty of the Theology of the Body. An understanding of this beautiful presentation of the Church's ancient teaching first of all helps people to comprehend their inherent worth and goodness, and also helps them to understand how sexuality is meant to express this goodness and God's love for us. So my first solution would be something of a preventative measure, as opposed to a rehabilitative measure.

For those individuals who will not attempt to remain chaste, the problem is more than just one of sexuality, it is one of not understanding who the Church is and her authority. Education is needed about the Church and her commission. Even those people who learn all of this and refuse to remain celibate should not be shunned, they should be welcomed at Church events but under no circumstances should the Church organize events that are centered around the homosexual lifestyle and commitment to it. In addition, those people who struggle with homosexuality who refuse to strive for chastity should be told (in private and in love) that their refusal to obey the Church places them outside full communion with her, by their own choice, and that they need to refrain from receiving Holy Communion until they are willing to submit even if they cannot understand fully. I know people think this is harsh but to say nothing gives tacit approval of sin and leads people further and further from the Lord.

I know this isn't some comprehensive program or anything but just my thoughts FWIW....