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zhilan
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ZooMom said:
How did you survive them? Where they able to move the baby into the womb?
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ZooMom said:I have survived two ectopic pregnancies...and aborted neither. Of course, I wasn't faced with the choice, either, but I would not have aborted. For any reason.
ZooMom said:I have survived two ectopic pregnancies...and aborted neither. Of course, I wasn't faced with the choice, either, but I would not have aborted. For any reason.
SmileBugMG said:Wow, really ZooMom? I was always given to understand that in ectopic pregnancies that there was no possibility for the baby to survive... it would just burst through the fallopian tube when it got too big... and the mother would possibly die from hemorrhage. My google skills are failing me in figuring this one out... care to elaborate?
Susansmum said:So if I have an ectopic pregnancy it would be a mortal sin to have the operation to remove the piece of the tube?
Of course, in the case of a salpingectomy, the woman is permitted to seek this procedure out as it offers, in most cases, the least risk to herself. Remember that 95% of ectopic pregnancies are in the fallopian tubes, so a removal of a piece or all of the tube can save the mother, and the procedure is widely practiced. Of course it will lead to the termination of the life of the child. Any act that directly attacks the life of the fetus is a mortal sin, an act of abortion and is strictly prohibited. An act that attempts to deal with the imminant dangers of the pathology of the mother, whose life is equally as important as that of her child, is licit even if the result would be the death of the fetus.
ZooMom said:I have survived two ectopic pregnancies...and aborted neither. Of course, I wasn't faced with the choice, either, but I would not have aborted. For any reason.
karenmarie said:When my mother was pregnant with my twin sister and I there were many complications, my mom nearly died having us. My sister did die at birth. The doctor told her she could never have more kids. She ended up pregnant 2 and a half years later with my brother. She was told by 3 doctors that she must have an abortion. They told her there was a 99% chance both her and the baby would die if she went through with the pregancy. My Mom was 100% against abortion. She prayed. She gave it to God to decide. She told my dad "If God wants to take me then he will, i can't PLAY God! There is a 1% chance i will LIVE according to doctors, but doctors arent God!" She went ahead with the pregnancy..and guess what..she lived, and my brother lived!! Praise the Lord! My brother is now 32 yrs old and has 4 beautiful children!! could you imagine if my mom listened to the doctors? Doctors dont know everything! GOD DOES!! its Gods choice, he could have taken my mother, my brother or both! Her decision would still have been the right one!! God chose to spare both their lives!
zhilan said:Those quotes are really bothering and upsetting to me. Can someone please explain those? How could popes have supported that it was ever ok to have an abortion?
As an aside, before reading any further,-- CAtholics hold Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium together-- they are not seperable components- but rather held together.Qidron said:Look, Catholics hold the pope's ex catherdra with more reverance than scripture. So I was sarcastic...I have my reasons. But my question is sincere and focuses on the OP none the less.
If the Popes edicts are not making the abortion/murder issue clear...WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY ABOUT ABORTION? It seems perfectly clear to me that abortion is murder...my heart tells me that it is....but I am not sure what the Word says. Do you know?
Instead of smoking up the thread...FOCUS.
Qidron
That is moving beyond words.....proud2bcatholic said:This reminds me of a story, if you don't mind me sharing.
I went on a men's retreat about a month ago. The retreat dealt with grief. One man, while we were sitting around the campfire on Saturday night gave a testimony of why he was there at the retreat(he is not a member of the parish that put on the retreat, neither am I, I went with my future father and brother in-laws). I hope I can remember it clearly. It went something like this.
He was baptized Catholic but non-practicing and an avowed atheist. His wife was a non-practicing non-denominational christian. Well his wife 6 years ago found out that she was diagnosed with cancer, she was given 6-12 months to live, and was told that she would not be able to have a baby(ovarian cancer?). Faced with this dilemna and suffering, she decided to seek God, so she started going to church, and because she wanted her husband to come with her, she went to the Catholic Church (St. Anne's, BrotherKnight) and dragged him along. She became on fire for Christ, entered RCIA (dragging her husband along with her) and became Catholic. She then started volunteering for the Church, teaching RCIA, being very active.
Well about 4 1/2 years later, not only was she still alive, but she also found out she was pregnant. The doctor telling her that she would not be able to survive the pregnancy, told her that she would need to get an abortion. She absolutely refused to do so. Well 6 months ago she gave birth to a baby, and the next day died.
The husband is now a single father of 3 children. During his telling of the story, it absolutely amazed me the serenity, faith, and love this man had. It was one of the most beautiful experiences I have ever had to hear a man, a former atheist, give testimony to the power of faith and love, absolutely astounded me.
All I see here is a bunch of twisting to claim the Church supported abortion. All I see is taking the lack of the early Churchs knowledge on gestation and using their error about what they thought it was and applying this to justify abortion in your own mind.Raist3001 said:Let me say first that I am a devout Catholic. And that abortion is contrary to all Catholic teaching. However, it was not always clear when the Church believed a child had a soul. Popes may have fallen into placing credence in Thomistic teachings, but I agree that abortion was not deemed to have been freed from it's distinction as a sin.
St. Augustine (354-430 CE) reversed centuries of Christian teaching in Western Europe, and returned to the Aristotelian concept of "delayed ensoulment." He wrote 7 that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated). He wrote extensively on sexual matters, teaching that the original sin of Adam and Eve are passed to each successive generation through the pleasure generated during sexual intercourse. This passed into the church's canon law. Only abortion of a more fully developed "fetus animatus" (animated fetus) was punished as murder.
St. Jerome wrote in a letter to Aglasia: "The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it [abortion] does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs"
Pope Innocent III (?-1216) wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."
Early in the 13th century, Pope Innocent III stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.
St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) also considered only the abortion of an "animated" fetus as murder.
Pope Sixtus V issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" in 1588 which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty. Pope Gregory XIV revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he said happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).
It was Pope Pius IX who reversed the stance of the Roman Catholic church once more. He dropped the distinction between the "fetus animatus" and "fetus inanimatus" in 1869. Canon law was revised in 1917 and 1983 and to refer simply to "the fetus." The tolerant approach to abortion which had prevailed in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries ended. The church requires excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy.
ZooMom said:To those who asked about my ectopic pregnancies...in both cases the tube ruptured and surgery was required to remove the damaged tissue. A ruptured fallopian tube is not instantly fatal. The first time this happened was about 8 or 9 years ago, right after I had had Mallory. I was hemorraging badly that time because I had waited over the weekend with abdominal pains before going to the doctor Monday morning...I had no idea that I could be or was pregnant. I thought I had an intestinal virus or something. But still, after waiting approximately three days after the rupture occured, I still only lost just over a pint of blood. This last time, they caught it earlier, but still after the rupture.
There is no way to move a baby once it has implanted. It will not reimplant. Ever. So the only options in a fallopian ectopic are to either abort and kill the fetus and possibly save the tube (though this is not guaranteed), or allow it to rupture (at which point the fetus dies instantly) and remove the damaged tube.
The thing is, though, that very VERY few ectopics are caught early enough for this to even be an issue. Most are not discovered until after rupture. So I'd be willing to bet that every death attributable to an ectopic pregnancy resulted from the woman not knowing what had happened and not seeking medical attention. There is some pain, but at least for me, it wasn't unbearable and not the type of distress that would send most women running to the doctor.
But...if I had had the choice, if they had caught the pregnancy before it ruptured, I still would not have aborted. I couldn't make myself do that. Either way...one has to go through surgery, so you wouldn't be 'sparing' yourself anything to abort. the only way I see a problem with letting the rupture occur naturally is if the woman is an hemophiliac (free bleeder). So what are the odds that an hemophiliac woman will have an ectopic pregnancy and they find out before the rupture...pretty slim.
I have wondered for a long time where this panic over ectopic pregnancies has come from. And I think I have figured it out. It comes from pro-abortionists who want a distraction to wave under the prolife nose...to sidetrack from the real issue. It's part of all the 'well what abouts' that they come up with to try to justify abortion.Well what about rape...well what about incest...well what about... See, they tell people 'Well what about in cases of ectopic pregnancy? The mother will DIE if she doesn't abort!' And people are frightened by that and start scrambling to try to find a 'loophole' in morality, since of course we don't want women DYING because they WON"T have an abortion. It's very effective. But it isn't true. Abortion is always...no matter what...wrong.
Peace be with you.
Sandy
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