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Catholics: How important is studying Church history to being a Christian?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by friend of, Jul 27, 2017.

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  1. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    We would think that...and I dont mean to suggest that all of them had lost connection with the Apostolic church completely. However, it is clear that a person who lived in the fifth century was not seeing the church in the same way as one living in the first century.

    No one in the first century, for example, had any idea of a universal jurisdiction over the church being given by Christ to the bishop of Rome. But four centuries later, we have actual evidence of Fathers changing their views in order not to be on the wrong side of that issue from the Pope, the bishop of Rome.

    The gates of hell have NOT *prevailed* against it. Christianity is still the most widespread religion in the world and continuing to grow.

    I would say that that POV is more associated with such religions as the Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses.
     
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    The only reason why the Catholic church has argued that it gave man the Bible is to bolster their teaching that the church has the same authority as does the Word of God.

    However, In reality, the Bible is inspired and has authority, not because a church declared it so, but because God made it so. God delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever. It was the Word of God the very moment the writers penned it down.

    2 Tim. 3:16...........
    All scripture is inspired of God...". "...

    2 Peter 1:21.........
    "Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

    Matt. 24:35........
    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

    1 Peter 1:24-25......
    "The grass withered, and the flower has fallen--but the word of the Lord endures forever."

    The Catholic church is wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.

    It would seem unnecessary for the Catholic Church to make the boastful claim of giving the Bible to the world when both it and so-called Protestantism accept the Bible as a revelation from God. However, it is an attempt to weaken the Bible as the sole authority and to replace it with their man-made church.

    If it is true that we can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church, doesn't that make the Catholic Church superior to the Bible? This is exactly what Catholic officials want men to believe. Their only problem is that their doctrine comes from their own human reasoning rather than from God.

    Their logic is a classic example of their "circle reasoning." They try to prove the Bible by the church (can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church) and prove the church by the Bible ("has ever grounded her doctrines upon it"). Such is absurd reasoning which proves nothing. Either the New Testament is the sole authority or it is not. If it is the New Testament, it cannot be the church, and if it is the church, it cannot be the New Testament.
     
  3. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Hello Albion, and thanks for responding to part of my post. I think you are mistaken when you say that "those people" (Catholics?) are belittling the use of the bible. We (those that do not adhere to sola scriptura) are making the point that sola scriptura (the bible alone) as our ultimate guide to doctrine or is all we need as a sole rule of faith is in itself unbiblical.
    It is only common sence that if the Apostles wanted to leave as their legacy, after they all died out that Christians were supposed to practice the doctrine of the "Bible alone", wouldn’t they have at least left a list telling Christians in the future, which books and letters were in fact supposed to belong in the bible? Wouldn't you agree? If not, why not?
    In other words Albion, "those people" you speak of (myself included, I used to be Protestant) do not belittle the use of the bible, we just dont believe God intended the use of the bible alone as being sufficient for a sole rule of faith. "Those people" believe,,,,, without having written a single word in the bible, the Church was teaching, preaching, growing, and flourishing for many years. And eventually, a very few Apostles and their disciples starting writing down some of the Church’s oral Tradition, and that Sacred Scripture along with Sacred Traditions go hand in hand.

    Again, thanks for your responce.
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:19..............
    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You have nailed it correctly as the Catholics point of view.

    Ignore what the Scriptures actually say and just do what you want to do and like what you want to like and throw away everything else.
     
  6. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Lets be clear here and honest.

    When anyone looks at the original post you made on the 2nd page, it is obviouse that the way you wrote it, the question is kind of hidden among the single paragraph toward the end and is hard to see.

    However, if you will look at comments # 65 and 82 you will see that your question was addressed by me personally. You will not like the answer and you will not accept the answer but it is what it is no matter what we want to think.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I wish I were, Fidelibus. To be sure, most Catholics/Orthodox do not speak that way, but there are some who do and IMO it is somewhat shocking that there are even some.

    I have read that on these forums, too, but I have never seen any evidence accompanying the claim. In any case, these are still not the people I was describing and this is not their approach to the problem. I would much prefer if it were, frankly.

    But the church did make this decision, so I dont see that there is any issue with this aspect of the matter.
     
  8. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, lets do, but it has to go both ways.

    Hidden? I think not, it is plainly there for all to see. Here it is again:
    Don't see how you think of this as hidden. A difficult question for someone that adheres to the bible alone doctrine to answer, yes, but Hidden? No.
    Addressed? kinda. Answered? No. In your post #65 all you did was give your personal opinion. Your quote:
    Then I asked...
    Then silence.
    Then I asked...
    Again.... silence.
    In post #82 you didn't answer one of my questions. All you did was post four Scripture passages, and then went on with your personal opinions on how the Catholic Church claims this... The Catholic Church claims that. Or how the Catholic Church assumes this, or the Catholic Church assumes that. The same ol' talking points, with nothing to back it up. Then you say in this quote:
    I won't like or accept what answers? There were no answers to like or dislike, accept or not accept. So Major1, lets try it again........In what year or years do you think Paul’s first and second letter's to the Thessalonians, the Gospel of Luke, or again, Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians writings would be a part of the New Testament? Again, historical evidence and their sources, would be most appreciated. If you don't know Major1, its okay to just say so, pretty sure no one will condemn you for it. I sure won't.
    So as you stated in the first quote of this post Major1, do you really believe that you honestly and clearly answerd my questions back on my post # 76? I don't feel you did, and hope that you will now.
     
  9. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe this dicision to be made before the Reformation? If so, what church would that be?
     
  10. ubicaritas

    ubicaritas sinning boldly

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    Of course. Some great saints were not particularly learned men and women, they just loved God.

    One of my favorite stories of a Catholic saint is Jean-Baptiste Labre, who lived most of his life as a homeless man in Rome, dedicating his life to penitence and good works. He travelled around giving Christian encouragement to those he encountered, visited the many shrines, and even allegedly performed miracles such as the multiplication of food. But he was, at an early age, rejected from several monasteries because he was considered feeble minded. When he died, thousands attended his funeral because he was so loved.

    It's really a question of ones vocation. Some people are called to be teachers, historians, and theologians, but it's not strictly necessary for salvation for everyone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  11. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    How about you addressing this part of my quote you posted usung your bible alone belief?


     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That would be what is often called "the Undivided Church," the church as it was prior to the Great Schism of 1054.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    YOU said that you left the Protestant church to be a Catholic.

    The verse I quoted speaks to those who said they were part of the church but never were. If you were actually part of the Protestant church you would not have left.
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    YES. Your question was answered. You do not like the answer so we see the smoke screen of confrontation.

    I will once again give the exact same answer. You will not like it this time either and you will not accept. However, that does not diminish the fact that it is the truth.

    What is going on here is that YOU along with the other Catholic believers accept the Bible as being inspired and as having authority only on the basis of the Catholic Church. In reality, the Bible is inspired and has authority, not because a church declared it so, but because God made it so.

    God delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever.

    2 Tim. 3:16.........
    "All scripture is inspired of God...".

    2 Peter 1:21.......
    "...Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.".

    Matt. 24:35.........
    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

    1 Peter 1:24-25....
    "The grass withered, and the flower has fallen--but the word of the Lord endures forever."

    The bottom line here, where the rubber meats the road, is that the Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.

    It would seem unnecessary for the Catholic Church to make the boastful claim of giving the Bible to the world when both it and so-called Protestantism accept the Bible as a revelation from God. However, it is an attempt to weaken the Bible as the sole authority and to replace it with their man-made church. If it is true that we can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church, doesn't that make the Catholic Church superior to the Bible?

    This is exactly what you as a Catholic and your officials want men to believe. Their only problem is that their doctrine comes from their own human reasoning rather than from God. Their logic is a classic example of their "circle reasoning." They and YOU try to prove the Bible by the church (can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church) and prove the church by the Bible ("has ever grounded her doctrines upon it"). Such is absurd reasoning which proves nothing. Either the New Testament is the sole authority or it is not. If it is the New Testament, it cannot be the church, and if it is the church, it cannot be the New Testament.
     
  15. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    No..... that's not what "I" said. What I said was that I was a member of numerous Protestant/non-demominational sects. (plural) And one of the main reasons I left was because of the dis-unity among these sects. For example, one church was for Gay marriage, and the other was not. One church was against Abortion, and the other was not. ect. ect. What I found odd was you stating I left the "Protestant church." (singular) How can you consider them "A church" with so much dis-unity, and thousands of different denominations?

    Ahhh..... FYI, Protestantism wasen't even thought of for fifteen hundred years when that passage was written. Like we Catholics keep trying to to explain, early Church history is not a friend to Protestantism.
     
  16. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Yes.... The Catholic Church!
     
  17. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but once again you have failed to answer them. What the bottem line is, and where the rubber meets (meats?) the road is...... All you did was repeat your same ol' talking points. (which I deleted) Soooooo...... Major1, for the forth (or is it the fifth) time I'll ask,

    I'm looking for years Major1, like for an example , do you think it was the year 15 a.d.? 25 a.d.? 36 a.d? And how about when You said:

    And I asked......."When you say " the canon was a process conducted first by Jewish rabbis" are you speaking of the Palestinian canon, or the Alexandrian canon?" Please point to me where you answerd this specificly. Or when I asked....

    Well??? Don't you think this would have been a very important thing to do if the Apostles believed in the Bible Alone Doctrine? So where does one found this list in Scripture? Or will you admit such a list does not exist in the bible? Which leads up to my very first question:

    Again, I'm talking about specific year/years or century/centuries. If you are having trouble Major1, this ol' Catholic would be more than happy to help you find the answers :)
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Again for the 3rd time, I gave it to you!

    THE MOMENT IT WAS PENNED BY MEN FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.
     
  19. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    It always amazes me the confusion that abounds when most protestants are asked to explain in a historical perspective just how the bible came to be. Most can't see beyond the fact that "Pastor Joe told me this is the word of God" or "mom and dad told me".

    There is nothing in the Bible that self authenticates it. We believe it is God's Word because others have told or convinced us of it.
     
  20. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That would be my mistake, then, for thinking you were asking serious question of me in a serious discussion. Had I known you were just looking for some "rah rah for our team" opportunity, I wouldn't have bothered.
     
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