• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Catholics: How important is studying Church history to being a Christian?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by friend of, Jul 27, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Erose

    Erose Newbie

    +1,177
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    And we would agree, that is why we don't pray to those in hell, for those in hell can't hear our prayers because they are truly dead.
     
  2. Erose

    Erose Newbie

    +1,177
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    What Saint is dead? You don't believe that all the righteous go to heaven to LIVE with God?
     
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,312
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I hear you and respect your thoughts. However do you not see that what you just said places the Pope in conflict with Vatican II????

    "As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."
    Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers
     
  4. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

    509
    +148
    Catholic
    Private
    If you beleive this to be true, maybe you would like to asnwer a couple of questions I asked of Protestants a few pages back that went unanswered.

    "So to my Protestant brothers and sisters I would like to ask you a historical church question...... If you beleived as I did as a Protestant, when do you believe the Bible to be codified, and when do you beleive the first writings that would be a part of the New Testament were finally written down? (Chronologized) Thank you for your replies in advance."
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,312
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Your comment is a little deceptive is it not?

    I remember your question and I also remember that it was answered. Now I realize the answer was not one you liked or accepted but none the less I am pretty sure it was addressed.

    Determining the canon was a process conducted first by Jewish rabbis and scholars and later by early Christians. Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon. A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing. It was simply a matter of God’s convincing His human followers which books should be included in the Bible.
     
  6. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

    +9,560
    Non-Denom
    Being in China and living in China is one thing. Sitting in my living room in the United States and getting on my knees and folding my hands together and then carrying on a conversation without any telephonic means of communication with someone in China is quite another. We have absolutely no reason to believe that the deceased people in heaven are able to communicate with the non-deceased people on earth.
     
  7. Erose

    Erose Newbie

    +1,177
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    No it really doesn't. Not everything that the pope says is infallible. That being said what the pope said when understood in the context of what he intended to say isn't a false statement, as I explained.
     
  8. Erose

    Erose Newbie

    +1,177
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Yes we do. Its called the Bible. Saul communed with Samuel, Jesus Himself communed with Moses and Elijah, then you throw in all the occurrences in Scripture where men and women communed with angels.

    Here is the point, you have two options here. 1) Are the Saints alive and well in heaven? or 2) Are the SDA correct in your view concerning their doctrine of soul-sleep?
     
  9. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,065
    Catholic
    Married
    So you disagree with the creed and New Testament, since they were a product of councils at a time you suggest it had lost connection with apostolic doctrine?

     
  10. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,065
    Catholic
    Married
    Vital. If you want to know the correct interpretation of doctrine.

    Reformationists for example have many interpretations of eucharist, and most are mutually exclusive.

    Only one is consistent with what the apostles handed down to first Christians, so is what Christ taught and that is visible in the writings of the early fathers, such as irenaeus ( he and polycarp disciples of John the apostle) , and Justin martyr - both writing only a few decades after Christ.

    They answer Real flesh, real blood. Valid only if performed by bishop or appointee in true succession.

    And with that you can discount most denominations.

    That is the problem with sola scriptura. Scripture is not sufficient. Tradition and authority carry true meaning for scripture.
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,312
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    So he is infallible until he makes a mistake and then that is OK because he was misunderstood??????

    No wonder there are so many Catholic apologetic web sites.
     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,312
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Biblically speaking, there is no such thing as "soul sleep".

    When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death as in Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6, it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep.

    The moment we die, we face the judgment of God as seen in Hebrews 9:27.

    For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord as that is told to us in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23).

    For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell Luke 16:22-23.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,312
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Wouldn't you think that the spirits of the saved in heaven are likely preoccupied with other things such as worshipping God and enjoying the glories of heaven????
     
  14. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

    +9,560
    Non-Denom
    Ah, but don't you understand that they become demi-gods after death and are vitally interested in serving as postmen for God to convey prayers to Him since He is too busy to hear them Himself if they were sent to Him directly?
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +20,960
    Anglican
    Married
    No. I certainly do not disagree with them..
     
  16. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

    509
    +148
    Catholic
    Private


    In what way? I'm just trying to get the historical perspective of those like yourself that adhere to the doctrine of sola scriptura (the bible alone) that the practice of scripture alone was taught and practiced by the early church.
    Again Major1, maybe my failing eye site has failed me once more, but I posted these questions back on Page 2; post # 24, of this thread and don't recall seeing a Protestant or for that matter, a Catholic responce. Maybe you could help me out and repost where I disliked or not accepted the answer. Was it your responce, or someone elses? Thanks.

    When you say " the canon was a process conducted first by Jewish rabbis" are you speaking of the Palestinian canon, or the Alexandrian canon? Also Major1, from your Protestant/sola scripturists perspective, who do you beleive these scholars/early Christians to be? Do you beleive them to be sola scripturists such as yourself? History proves they couldn't have been Protestant, so who do you believe them to be? Your Historical evidence and sources to back up your argument would be most appreciated.
    You are absolutly correct, the Holy Spirit did, through the Holy Catholic Church!
    Okay.......Which again brings up the question......... From a Protestant/sola scripturists (the bible alone) belief, when do you beleive the bible to have been codified? What do sola scripturists like yourself beleive the chronology of the first writings to be? In other words, what year or years do you think Paul’s first and second letter's to the Thessalonians, the Gospel of Luke, or again, Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians writings would be a part of the New Testament? Again, historical evidence and their sources, would be most appreciated.
    Again, these human followers were who? and when?
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +20,960
    Anglican
    Married
    Simply put, we have the statements of some of the Early Church Fathers to the effect that Scripture is what they referred to when making their pronouncements about the first churches and their beliefs. And the Nicene Creed itself credits Scripture.

    Neither of them makes any mention whatsoever of Holy Tradition, the theory that is put up against Scripture Alone by those people who write all the posts here belittling the use of the Bible as our ultimate guide to doctrine.
     
  18. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,065
    Catholic
    Married

    I didn't think you did disagree... but if you do accept them, it is hard to argue the early fathers who decided such things several centuries from Christ had lost touch with their apostolic roots.

    So unless you can find an apostasy, you can only assume they were a continuum of the earliest fathers. Sure, theological understanding developed and the acorn of church structure necessarily grew to an oak. But that's not a argument for suggesting that the councils who decided the creed had drifted from the apostolic roots with the passage of time.

    It is also somewhat questioning the power of our Lord, who said his church will be one and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. To believe our Lord allowed the the church to apostasize, is to accuse our Lord of breaking a promise!

    Many fundamentalists try to argue that there was an apostasy and they are returning to church roots after millennia. They speculate all sorts of dates : the problem they have is choosing any date that makes doctrinal sense.
    Constantine is often painted as the bad guy, but the problem with that is doctrine did not change, as verifiable in contemporary works such as anthony/ anasthasius.
    The big problem fundamentalists have is they then do things wholly at odds with even the first fathers, as if apostasy was the first generation!

    I think it VERY important to study what the fathers who formed the creed and selected the canon believed scripture meant, since that is part of why they chose it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  19. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,065
    Catholic
    Married
    Some of them had no such intention.
    St Therese of lisieux said:

    "My mission - to make God loved - will begin after my death, I will spend my heaven doing good on earth"
     
  20. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,065
    Catholic
    Married
    You omit to state the definitive act, which is defined as speaking ex cathedra, analogous to Moses seat.
    There have been very few such pronouncements.

     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...