Catholic's, at what point does it become the body? (2)

JacktheCatholic

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"This IS my Body," said Jesus.

Around 130 AD, in First Apology by Justin Martyr, he writes:
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone.

Justin Martyr, also known as just Saint Justin (AD 100–ca.165), was an early Christian apologist, and is regarded as the foremost interpreter of the theory of the Logos in the 2nd century.[2] Most of his works are lost, but two apologies and a dialogue did survive. He is considered a saint by the Roman Catholic Church,[3] the Anglican Church,[4] and the Eastern Orthodox Church.
 
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Tangible

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If it hasn't been said before, the answer to this is not found in scripture. Some will err in saying that it is only after the Verba that the body and blood are present. Others will err in saying that it is only at reception.

Scripture doesn't say. The one presiding announces the presence but doesn't bring it about, and neither does our act of reception.

Scripture only says that Christ's body and blood are indeed present in the Sacrament.
 
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Scripture only says that Christ's body and blood are indeed present in the Sacrament.

That is enough for me :)

What exactly did He mean? I am very grateful that my own eternal destiny is NOT dependent upon my own understanding, nor my own wisdom, nor my specific knowledge of such details. I am content with this being a mystery; a HOLY mystery. :bow:

I am amazed in our Savior's Love, that while we were yet sinful enemies of God, He gave Himself for us. And even for me. It boggles the mind, and truly defies understanding. And yes, sometimes it still causes me to tremble.

I am Blessed to ever get the slightest glimpse into any Divine intent or purpose, and yet He has stepped into our realm in such a tangible way that we are SURROUNDED by His intents and purposes, and His Blessings pursue and overtake us! I find the riches of the word of Christ to be well with my soul, and the cup that we Bless to be wondrous indeed; too wondrous for words alone, but this appears to be a river of living water, in that words on the subject never seem to run dry ...
 
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If it hasn't been said before, the answer to this is not found in scripture. Some will err in saying that it is only after the Verba that the body and blood are present. Others will err in saying that it is only at reception.

Scripture doesn't say. The one presiding announces the presence but doesn't bring it about, and neither does our act of reception.

Scripture only says that Christ's body and blood are indeed present in the Sacrament.

Is this the Lutheran understanding or is it the Catholic teaching, as well, as requested in the OP?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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If it hasn't been said before, the answer to this is not found in scripture. Some will err in saying that it is only after the Verba that the body and blood are present. Others will err in saying that it is only at reception.

Scripture doesn't say. The one presiding announces the presence but doesn't bring it about, and neither does our act of reception.

Scripture only says that Christ's body and blood are indeed present in the Sacrament.

Is this the Lutheran understanding or is it the Catholic teaching, as well, as requested in the OP?

Such is the Lutheran understanding.:)
 
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AHJE

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AHJE

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Do you have any official source from your church on the question?

Right here:

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.207

-----------------------
Catechism of the Catholic Church

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of the Eucharist
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

Some of the findings:
- The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.
- The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).
- In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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When Jesus pronounces, "this is my flesh," we believe Jesus and believe that when He says that, the bread is His flesh. And, same thing with the wine.

It is a mystery as to how this happens. It is a mystery as to how the Apostles duplicate this by acting in Persona of Christi, as Jesus works through the Apostle as a vessel and is the same Jesus that we have at the Last Supper. It is a mystery how the Apostles were able to pass on this Gift, to act in Persona of Christi, to future Bishoprics. But, this is what we believe and have believed since the Apostles.

When Paul writes, that a church suffers because they do not recognize the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, that is affirmation that it is Jesus' flesh.

It is not for Man to know all. It is not for Man to be able to explain miraculous phenomenon. We are finite and so we have limits. God is infinite and so God has no limits (to power, love, mercy, or anything Good.)
 
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Luvtosew

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fresh[/B] normal blood.

As a RC who believed and still believes only in the spiritual presence of Jesus in the host, tell me how blood was found in a non bloody sacrifice, and also the wine is suppose to represent the blood, the host represents the body. Blood and flesh shall not enter heaven.

This is all a hoax.
 
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ceb420

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I agree with the hoax conclusion.

John 6 is so completely taken out of context. The entire chapter is about SPIRITUAL life and then one verse all of a sudden should be taken literal/physical?? Jesus had to go that far because as someone in this thread already pointed out, the disciples were just not understanding what He was talking about. It was right after He had just fed the 5000, so all that was on their mind was their bellies!
 
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alphonsus12

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As a RC who believed and still believes only in the spiritual presence of Jesus in the host, tell me how blood was found in a non bloody sacrifice, and also the wine is suppose to represent the blood, the host represents the body. Blood and flesh shall not enter heaven.

This is all a hoax.
Acts 1:9 (NIV)
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

I have to disagree with you about the blood and flesh shall not enter into Heaven, because when our Lord Ascended, He ascended entirely, his body and blood included. Additionally there is the whole issue of the resurrection on the last day, unless of course you are talking about the period between Christ's Ascension and the Last Day, but still the Precious Blood and Flesh have entered into Heaven.
 
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Luvtosew

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Acts 1:9 (NIV)
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

I have to disagree with you about the blood and flesh shall not enter into Heaven, because when our Lord Ascended, He ascended entirely, his body and blood included. Additionally there is the whole issue of the resurrection on the last day, unless of course you are talking about the period between Christ's Ascension and the Last Day, but still the Precious Blood and Flesh have entered into Heaven.

Hi, so you disagree with Paul then?
 
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Luvtosew

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I agree with the hoax conclusion.

John 6 is so completely taken out of context. The entire chapter is about SPIRITUAL life and then one verse all of a sudden should be taken literal/physical?? Jesus had to go that far because as someone in this thread already pointed out, the disciples were just not understanding what He was talking about. It was right after He had just fed the 5000, so all that was on their mind was their bellies!

Yes I agree.
 
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As a RC who believed and still believes only in the spiritual presence of Jesus in the host, tell me how blood was found in a non bloody sacrifice, and also the wine is suppose to represent the blood, the host represents the body. Blood and flesh shall not enter heaven.

This is all a hoax.
It is Christ's body and blood because he said it is. Transubstantiation does not bring about a chemical change or change in appearance. It is a change in essence. Essence is a philosophical term. "What it is" becomes "Who it is." We are accustomed to the appearance changing when the essence changes, but it does not in this case here. I do not insist on explaining it. Jesus said it; that settles it.
The Last Supper and Christ's death and resurrection are one event, not separate events. Just as the Passover was a sacrifice, so was the Last Supper. Jesus' offering is completed on Calvary.
 
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