Catholicism or Protestantism?

[hedrick]

Right, but I was talking about the denomination itself.

The actual Catholic church (as opposed to differences among individuals) is in theory uniform -- though in practice it varies more than the Pope would like.

But there are many Protestant denominations, and they vary from much more conservative than the Catholic Church to much more liberal.

There is a kind of "center of gravity" to conservative Protestantism, what I call "generic evangelicalism." Whether it's more liberal than the Catholics depends upon the issue. It certainly is less legalistic. But official evangelical theology is based on the inerrancy of Scripture (when read in selectively literal ways), which is inherently conservative. Liberal means lots of different things, both political and theological. But the liberal end of Protestantism is the "mainline", PCUSA, ELCA, UCC, Disciples, Episcopal, etc., along with the liberal wing of the evangelical tradition (the churches that are open to the "emerging" church influence).

 

[GrayAngel]

If it's about the kind of Bible you want to read, I'm sure you're aware that Catholics have more books than the Protestants, and I believe these books are called the "Apocrypha." Catholics will say that Protestants are missing these books and only have a portion of scripture, but Protestants say that Catholics have extra books that are not genuine pieces of scripture.

You can probably guess from the "Baptist" icon in the upper left where I stand on this issue.

I believe that scripture, as it was originally written, is inerrant. That doesn't mean it's all literal, or that every recounting of history is a word-for-word telling of exactly how things happened. It also doesn't mean that the scripture we have today in the NIV, KJV, or any other version is perfect. Scripture was originally written in Greek and Hebrew (which I'm glad to hear you are fluent in), not in English, so there are some unavoidable problems that arise from translation. We also know from going through ancient manuscripts that some people have edited the Bible, and you can find some passages of scripture surrounded by []'s, meaning it's believed to have been added into later versions.

Taking all of these things into account, we know that our versions of the Bible are not perfect, but the original Word of God--as it was given to the men who penned it--is perfect.

What does this mean for the Apocrypha? Well, there are a ton of contradictions between the Catholic books and the other books of the Bible. If we believe that scripture is God-breathed, then we must disqualify anything that doesn't match up with the rest of scripture. Also, the books of the Bible were written by men who had the authority to right them, such as Moses or the prophets. The Apocrypha, however, had some writers of questionable authority, people we've never heard of apart from their books. Their messages should be looked on with skepticism.

There are some problems with Catholic theology that come from the Apocrypha, some of which you have pointed out. They believe in praying for the dead, indulgences (although I'm not sure how this is still practiced today, if at all), and Purgatory. Scripture says that death is final, that there is a gap between Heaven and Hell that cannot be crossed. Purgatory makes a complete mess of things, because it implies that Christ's death was not enough to wash away all of our sins, that we may still have a little punishment left to endure in Purgatory before being allowed into Heaven.

Catholicism is largely works based, which also contradicts scripture, which says that we are saved by faith alone. Now, we believe that faith without works is dead, but works are not what earn our ticket to Heaven.

A lot of people think that because the Catholics were around longer, they are more accurate with the teachings of Jesus, but this is not the case. The reason Protestantism ever sprang up was because Catholicism had grown a monopoly on the interpretation of scripture (which was only available in Latin, which English speakers couldn't read) and they had corrupted the Christian faith. Protestantism is an attempt at the return to accurate teaching, and some denominations do a better job than others.

BTW, I am happy to hear about your interest in converting to the Christian faith. No matter which denomination you join, I will congratulate you. Salvation does not require that we have all of the answers.

 

[Sketcher]

Hey guys, thanks for all of your input. Seeing as Protestantism seems to be close to what I'm looking for, I will explore that option first. I've read a bit of the Catholic catechism and didn't quite like what I saw in there. I will have to give it a more in depth reading before I can rule Catholicism out entirely, though.

About Messianic Judaism, people keep mentioning it to me but my opinion is that you can't both practice Judaism and believe in Christ at the same time. God changed his covenant so all of mankind would be saved, not just the Jews, and pretty much all religious Jewish laws were abolished following that new covenant thus making Judaism a something of the past. The fact that Jesus remained Jewish until the very end still stands though, which is why I don't think of converting to Christianity as leaving Judaism entirely.

I suppose that depends on how Judaism and the Jewish identity is defined. Have you read any of Dr. Michael Brown's works? He is a man who was born Jewish, came to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, his life was transformed, and he has written several books dealing with Jews today and following Jesus. I would recommend checking out his perspective and testimony here: Ask Dr. Brown. He believes in Christianity without giving up Jewish identity.

 

[Knee V]

First bit of advice: don't forget the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I'm looking a bible I can read on a daily basis..........

No offense, but I was under the impression that both denominations had men in fancy silk garbs! I can't really comment about that part in Galatians because so far I've only read the Gospels and Acts.

Thanks for the book recommendation, I will check it out.

1. The NIV Life Application BIble with commentary on the bottom of each page is awesome and has really helped my growth in Christ.

2. You wont find Protestant Preachers wearing the finest of silk robes and hats and demand you kiss their ring in a curtsey position ! Nor will you hear them demand as Catholic Canon Law says :' One MUST submit their total will ,intellect, devotion to the Preacher and his teaching '(paraphrased) .

3. Read Galatians chapter 1 : 1-10 for a very stern warning about preaching a false gospel that cannot save. Quote from Fr. Tom Forrest of the Catholic Vatican (formerly John Pauls 2 assistant) :' THe Roman Catholic Church is the visible sacrament of salvation' . No...JESUS solely is the salvation and Gods ONLY appointed way : John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 .

4. The free online book i listed sums it all up.

 

[Crandaddy]

I don't especially like involving myself in interdenominational disputes, but I might suggest that you research early Christian Tradition and give that significant weight along with the Bible in your decision.

According to the Canon of St. Vincent of Lerins, we should hold to "that [faith] which has been believed everywhere, always, by all." I think this is a very good rule to go by. What have Christians always believed? Which churches most closely resemble the earliest churches in faith and practice?

 

[Knee V]

There are some problems with Catholic theology that come from the Apocrypha, some of which you have pointed out. They believe in praying for the dead, indulgences (although I'm not sure how this is still practiced today, if at all), and Purgatory. Scripture says that death is final, that there is a gap between Heaven and Hell that cannot be crossed. Purgatory makes a complete mess of things, because it implies that Christ's death was not enough to wash away all of our sins, that we may still have a little punishment left to endure in Purgatory before being allowed into Heaven.

I'm not going to try to defend the Catholic position on things (there are enough of them here to do that themselves), and I'm not going to try to convince you of the authenticity of these disputed books. However, I will just add that the Orthodox also use these same books, but we do not come to all the same conclusions that the Catholics do, and we do not believe that any of these books can be used to justify doctrines such as indulgences or purgatory. In fact, indulgences and purgatory were some of the hot-button issues (although there were certainly more) that kept us from getting back together and which made our rift permanent.

 

[Lukaris]

I think the Apostles' Creed & Nicene Creed are the basic statments of faith that most Orthodox, Catholics, & Protestants should agree on. I would recommend whatever church you may approach, ask them if these creeds truly define their beliefs. Our faith is all about Jesus Christ as our savior & you must realize where the Spirit will guide you & anyone who hems & haws about these creeds, consider this a red flag. These are faithful creeds & from them you can begin to read the New Testament.

 

[sculleywr]

Hello CF, some background about me - I'm a 20 years old Jewish guy, born and raised in Israel. I've had an interest in the Christian faith ever since I began dabbling in philosophy a few years back (and which I'm going to major in college soon). I'm hoping to convert at some point in the future when I have full confidence in my decision, but until then I'm mainly researching.

So as the title says, I'm not sure which denomination I'm the most comfortable with. On one hand you have the Catholic Church, one of the oldest institutions in the world and whose customs are quite similar to those of Judaism (the sacraments and good works come to mind). On the other hand the Catholic doctrine, at least on paper, is very strict. There are some things I find hard to believe, such as papal supremacy and papal infallibility, indulgences, purgatory and praying to Virgin Mary. Didn't Jesus say that the only one we should pray to is the Father? Why would people go to the purgatory when Jesus had paid the ultimate sacrifice for the salvation of mankind? If a man has to work so hard to get salvation, what point did the crucifixion serve?

This brings me to Protestantism. I like many things about it such as not needing Church interpretations of the Scripture (sola scriptura), rejection of the purgatory and the revering of anyone but the Father and Son, not having to pay money and lead an almost monastic way of life to achieve salvation (sola fide and sola gratia) and the list goes on. It's also more liberal, although conservatism is a good thing sometimes. I'm also hoping to live abroad when I get older so it helps that the countries I'd like to go to have Protestantism as the main denomination, but that's not a real reason.

So anyway I'd appreciate any tips you guys could give me regarding this dilemma. It would also help me in finding the right bible for myself. I know it's probably a tough question to answer, especially when there are people from every sect of Christianity in this forum, but I can only ask you guys!

You can also look into Orthodoxy.

 

[firstpetertwonine]

I would like to offer a word...

I was raised Protestant. (Presbyterian.) I attended a Presbyterian church with my grandparents up thru early high school. Most of the time that I was there, I did not have any interest in learning about the differences between the various Christian denominations/churches. In fact, I specifically went out of my way not to learn because I didn't want to know; I just wanted to consider myself non-denominational.

In senior high school, however, that changed. It's a long story why and I won't go into it. Suffice it to say I became deeply disturbed at the divisions in the church and decided I felt like learning where they came from. I began to exhaustively study church history and in doing so became interested in Catholicism. I signed up for adult conversion (RCIA) classes at a local Catholic parish. I attended them for a year and was received into the Catholic Church the following Easter.

I was not Catholic for long, however, before I started to question whether I'd done the wrong thing. I still had a lot of Protestant friends and family who were not very welcoming of my conversion. Please understand, while most Protestants are generally not terribly fond of Catholicism, the Presbyterian church I came from was particularly anti-Catholic. Night and day they filled my head with worries that I may jeopardize my salvation if I persisted as a Catholic because I was following the anti-Christ in the Pope.

This became a serious issue as eventually I started to sink into depression and lost sleep because of it. I spent 100% of my free time for a couple of years reading theology trying to figure out which side was right, Protestants or Catholics. I must have done an entire Theology degree's worth of research on it. You wanna know what I concluded? NOTHING. I could never come to an answer. I felt there were good arguments on both sides of the fence. (For example, are we saved by faith alone or faith plus works? Romans 3:28: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law." James 2:24: "So you see that a man is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone." The Protestant will point to the former and contextualize away the latter. The Catholic will point to the latter, and contextualize away the former.) The only thing that all this struggle DID do: it separated me from my simple, humble relationship with Christ Jesus. It ruined my life. The joy and peace of my salvation was long gone and forgotten. I spent far less time praising God in prayer and thanking him for my life, than I did begging for help with my "problem".

The only way I eventually resolved the conflict was by deciding not to decide. I began following my then-girlfriend (now my wife) to her Lutheran church (ELCA) one Sunday and I was happy with what I found there. I found a worship service I liked, people who were friendly, and pastors who faithfully preached the gospel. That was about 8 years ago. That church is where you'll still find me on Sundays to this day. I joined the ELCA about a week before our wedding. We married in that church, and I'm now a lay-leader there.

I don't consider myself a Lutheran. I don't consider myself a Catholic. I don't consider myself a Protestant. I don't consider myself non-denominational. I only want people to look at me and see a follower of Jesus. Whatever other labels they choose to place upon me, I don't care.

I don't want to discourage anyone from exploring the issue, certainly not. Most people are not as obsessive-compulsive as I am and would probably not carry the search to such an extreme. But the moral of my story is only to point out that the church we go to does not matter nearly as much as the One we worship while we are there. And I believe he's there in Catholic churches as well as Protestant. (And Orthodox!) Remember how Paul warned us not to side with one Christian leader over another. (1 Corinthians 1:10-17) Likewise Jesus prayed that we be one as a sign of his presence among us. (John 17:22-23) Maybe for most of us that do not have a PhD in Theology, we'd be better served finding a local parish church where we feel comfortable, and settling down there, regardless of denominational affiliation... maybe, maybe not. Just a thought.

Peace

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I would like to offer a word...

I was raised Protestant. (Presbyterian.) I attended a Presbyterian church with my grandparents up thru early high school. Most of the time that I was there, I did not have any interest in learning about the differences between the various Christian denominations/churches. In fact, I specifically went out of my way not to learn because I didn't want to know; I just wanted to consider myself non-denominational.

In senior high school, however, that changed. It's a long story why and I won't go into it. Suffice it to say I became deeply disturbed at the divisions in the church and decided I felt like learning where they came from. I began to exhaustively study church history and in doing so became interested in Catholicism. I signed up for adult conversion (RCIA) classes at a local Catholic parish. I attended them for a year and was received into the Catholic Church the following Easter.

I was not Catholic for long, however, before I started to question whether I'd done the wrong thing. I still had a lot of Protestant friends and family who were not very welcoming of my conversion. Please understand, while most Protestants are generally not terribly fond of Catholicism, the Presbyterian church I came from was particularly anti-Catholic. Night and day they filled my head with worries that I may jeopardize my salvation if I persisted as a Catholic because I was following the anti-Christ in the Pope.

This became a serious issue as eventually I started to sink into depression and lost sleep because of it. I spent 100% of my free time for a couple of years reading theology trying to figure out which side was right, Protestants or Catholics. I must have done an entire Theology degree's worth of research on it. You wanna know what I concluded? NOTHING. I could never come to an answer. I felt there were good arguments on both sides of the fence. (For example, are we saved by faith alone or faith plus works? Romans 3:28: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law." James 2:24: "So you see that a man is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone." The Protestant will point to the former and contextualize away the latter. The Catholic will point to the latter, and contextualize away the former.) The only thing that all this struggle DID do: it separated me from my simple, humble relationship with Christ Jesus. It ruined my life. The joy and peace of my salvation was long gone and forgotten. I spent far less time praising God in prayer and thanking him for my life, than I did begging for help with my "problem".

The only way I eventually resolved the conflict was by deciding not to decide. I began following my then-girlfriend (now my wife) to her Lutheran church (ELCA) one Sunday and I was happy with what I found there. I found a worship service I liked, people who were friendly, and pastors who faithfully preached the gospel. That was about 8 years ago. That church is where you'll still find me on Sundays to this day. I joined the ELCA about a week before our wedding. We married in that church, and I'm now a lay-leader there.

I don't consider myself a Lutheran. I don't consider myself a Catholic. I don't consider myself a Protestant. I don't consider myself non-denominational. I only want people to look at me and see a follower of Jesus. Whatever other labels they choose to place upon me, I don't care.

I don't want to discourage anyone from exploring the issue, certainly not. Most people are not as obsessive-compulsive as I am and would probably not carry the search to such an extreme. But the moral of my story is only to point out that the church we go to does not matter nearly as much as the One we worship while we are there. And I believe he's there in Catholic churches as well as Protestant. (And Orthodox!) Remember how Paul warned us not to side with one Christian leader over another. (1 Corinthians 1:10-17) Likewise Jesus prayed that we be one as a sign of his presence among us. (John 17:22-23) Maybe for most of us that do not have a PhD in Theology, we'd be better served finding a local parish church where we feel comfortable, and settling down there, regardless of denominational affiliation... maybe, maybe not. Just a thought.

Peace

Excellent!

All denomintions are comprised of 'wheat and tares', the true church being 'hidden in plain sight'.