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Catholicism and Lutheranism

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Religious Crisis, Mar 20, 2002.

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  1. Dave Ulchers

    Dave Ulchers Active Member

    I believe we can agree on that!

    That isn't quite a correct statement of the Catholic understanging of grace. If I might try to explain?

    We must consider that "a bad tree can not good fruit nor a good tree bear bad fruit." But we know that a person, though they are corrupt, may occasional do that which is objectively good, even though the rest of the time they may be in a state of mortal sin, which is to say: deprived of charity in their heart. So the question is: why the evil appear to do good though Jesus declares this impossible?

    Is the evil person to say to themselves: I have done some small thing good, therefore I'm a good tree, and therefore I must be saved? Perhaps they will but that would not be correct.

    The answer is that in truth, it is God acting through them which causes them to do some good, and that the person, while not good themselves, is accepting of their own free will this grace to act in a good way. Just because they have accepted this grace, without which it would be impossible for them to do anything good, doesn't make them saved.

    Now since we know that a good tree does not bear bad fruit, we must consider how the transformation takes place. It is the Catholic understanding that as a person who is bad accepts more and more the grace from God which enables them to do some good act, there must reach a point where they no longer desire not to cooperate with this grace, and therefore leave from all mortal sin. This is the state of sanctifying grace.

    So it's not that a person needs to do anything to earn God's favor. That fact of the matter is that people do indeed do things, and what they do can be contrary to God's will. It is Catholic teaching that a soul which willfully turns away from God, i.e, lives in mortal sin, and persists in such a state until the end will descend into hell.

    If a soul reaches a state of sanctifying grace, then he is sanctified. "He who believes in Christ becomes a son of God. This filial adoption transforms him by giving him the ability to follow the example of Christ. It makes him capable of acting rightly and doing good. In union with his Savior, the disciple attains the perfection of charity which is holiness. Having matured in grace, the moral life blossoms into eternal life in the glory of heaven."

    Again, we would seem to agree. Crucifying the old person so that Christ might live through the new is simply another metaphor. A person who has Christ living through them does not produce bad fruit.

    But once the new self is put on, Christ Jesus does save, if you will go on to read Romans 8. "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God." And we know that the children of God do not sin.
  2. Religious Crisis

    Religious Crisis God is a Consuming Fire!!!

    Well I'm not.
  3. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    To Crisis:

    Not to worry, Hon. I was making a very tongue-in-cheek reference about a post in a different thread.

    I just get carried away sometimes. Maybe I'd better increase my medication...

    Seriously, if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask. We've got a lot of people around here who are happy to share their knowledge.

    Peace be with you,
  4. paulewog

    paulewog Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

    Maybe Lutherans should take a look at Luther's beliefs.... :-D
  5. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    For what purpose?

    (BTW, I have studied Luther extensively.)
  6. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    wow, all this discussion and the 2 big things weren't brought up?!

    2 HUGE differences

    1. Sola scriptura

    2. Sola Fide

    trans vs con substantiation.
  7. swalker

    swalker New Member

    Originally posted by filosofer
    Major difference revolves around imputed righteousness (L) and infused righteousness (RC).

    "Imputed is where man isn't really righteous, but God sees him as righteous because he is blinded by Jesus, right?

    (Isn't funny how some people make God in their own image? What to say then of those who have a blind God?)"

    No. I don't think it's funny to speak like that. Man isn't righteous ("Every man has sinned" therefore every man is unworthy.) Jesus saves, not man. Jesus blotted out our sins once and for all. I'm appalled that you don't see the truth in this. It's in the Bible.

    GOD is not blind, but I can see why someone could say that He was. I prefer to call it forgetful.  God saw that all had sinned. God sent His his Son Jesus so that all who believed on him would be saved. Jesus blotted out our sins once and for all.  Therefore, they no longer are remembered by the Father. Blind could be a poor choice of words, but the result is the same.  Our sins are forgiven. Why is this hard for you to accept ?

    Also, I'm sure that another major difference is that Lutherans do not believe that the Pope has religious authority over them.

    "Faith Alone" seemed to be a pretty big arguement of Luther's for a while too.

    In Genesis it says that ,"God made man in His own image."  Does it not follow that man would have reason to think that God would be a little bit like man? 

    Just a thought.

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