Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

OrthodoxyUSA

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Interesting. I looked that up and it appears the ROC disagrees with the icon being painted by Luke. I am not saying isn't a pretty icon but just stating what has been said about it.

ANOTHER ICON MYTH: ICONS PAINTED BY ST. LUKE
ANOTHER ICON MYTH: ICONS PAINTED BY ST. LUKE
If one begins researching the icons of Mary called chudotvornaya— “wonderworking” — in the Russian Orthodox Church (and there are some in Greek Orthodoxy too, but not nearly as many), one will quickly notice that a number of them are said (with a straight face) to have been painted by St. Luke. Yes, Saint Luke, also known as the Evangelist Luke....................
Not one of the icons attributed to Luke is in a style remotely connected to the 1st century A.D. All are much, much later (and from various later times chronologically). And there is not one bit of scientific analysis dating any one of the number of icons attributed to Luke to the 1st century..........
So says the scholastic student. And what reason does he give? Because its not in the bible.

It is the very difference between parochial schools and secular schools.

Forgive me...
 
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BNR32FAN

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"That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works." - Beatrice

So you're supposing somebody made up something and everyone went along with it?

Councils are called to affirm "what has been believed everywhere always and by all". In this way, it shuns inovation. But in this case you think the council made up something. Likely someone in a scholastic environment has taught you that.

Are you familiar with the first Christian Icon painted by St. Luke? Something HAS bewn there from the beginning.

Forgive me...

evidently they didn't teach that in Antioch. It's also not taught in the bible. Mary was the mother of Jesus yes. Jesus is God yes. He is a part of the Godhead. Mary is not the mother of God The Father and not the mother of the Holy Spirit. So she is not the mother of God. There are 3 personalities that make up God. She is the mother of Jesus' physical human body. That's it. After the birth of Jesus her role was completed. Yes she did raise Jesus from a child. Then what did she do? Nothing.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Ok
evidently they didn't teach that in Antioch. It's also not taught in the bible. Mary was the mother of Jesus yes. Jesus is God yes. He is a part of the Godhead. Mary is not the mother of God The Father and not the mother of the Holy Spirit. So she is not the mother of God. There are 3 personalities that make up God. She is the mother of Jesus' physical human body. That's it. After the birth of Jesus her role was completed. Yes she did raise Jesus from a child. Then what did she do? Nothing.


Okay man, I'll walk away from that one. I'm Antiochian by the way.

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East
http://antiochian.org/

Forgive me...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So says the scholastic student. And what reason does he give? Because its not in the bible.

It is the very difference between parochial schools and secular schools.

Forgive me...
Hi Ortho, hope you are doing well.
I suppose we will just have to ask Luke when we see him........I know there is a thread on TAW devoted to Iconography for any interested
[I see ya took your mug shot avatar off ehehe.....]

The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox
Questions about iconography...
This is a thread for anyone who has questions about iconography to post them for the 3 iconographers on TAW (Michael the Iconographer, Nutroll, and Julia) to answer........................
Now that I have requested the parameters of the thread please feel free to post any questions which you might have about Orthodox Iconography!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ok



Okay man, I'll walk away from that one. I'm Antiochian by the way.

Forgive me...

is the original Church of God still in Antioch? I would love to visit it someday if it is.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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is the original Church of God still in Antioch? I would love to visit it someday if it is.
It's in Damascus. On the street called straight.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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LittleLambofJesus

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It's in Damascus. On the street called straight.
Forgive me...
Interesting. Is it a coincidence that the street was called "Straight"?
Paul was on a crooked path until he met our Lord Jesus. His path then became straight.

Act 9:11
So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas
for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold! he is praying.


Strong's Greek: 2117. εὐθύς (euthus) -- straight, straightway
Englishman's Concordance
Strong's Greek 2117 8 Occurrences
εὐθεῖα — 1 Occ.
εὐθείαν — 3 Occ. Luke 3:5 Acts 9:11. 2 Peter 2:15
εὐθείας — 4 Occ.

Luk 3:5
Every valley shall be filled, And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight, And the rough ways smooth;

Isa 40:4
Every valley shall be exaltedAnd every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight, And the rough places smooth;

This is thought to be the House of St Ananias in the ancient Christian Quarter of Damascus in which he baptised Saul.

......................................................

Ananias of Damascus - Wikipedia

Ananias
(/ænəˈnaɪəs/ AN-ə-NY-əs; Ancient Greek: Ἀνανίας, same as Hebrew חנניה, Hananiah, "favoured of the LORD"),[1] was a disciple of Jesus at Damascus mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles in the Bible, which describes how he was sent by Jesus to restore the sight of "Saul, of Tarsus" (known later as Paul the Apostle) and provide him with additional instruction in the way of the Lord.

According to Acts 9:10, Ananias was living in Damascus.
In Paul's speech in Acts 22, he describes Ananias as "a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews" that dwelt in Damascus (Acts 22:12). According to F. F. Bruce, this indicates that he was not one of the refugees from the persecution in Jerusalem described in Acts 8:1.[3]
 
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Galilee63

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Daniel's Vision of the Four Beasts

1In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 2Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel's Vision of the Ancient of Days

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel's Visions Interpreted

15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

28Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

King James Bible



 
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Galilee63

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God our Heavenly Father's Holy Saints are His Priests, Prophets, Bishops, ArchBishops, Popes, Nuns/Sisters/Saints, Religious in His Hebrew and Catholic Church in Heaven and those remaining in Jesus - our Unfathomable Divine Mercy, Holy King of Kings Holy Lord of Lords, Holy King of Heaven and Earth Holy King of Mercy and Holy King of Hearts, our Holy Shepherd, God Holy Spirit and our Blessed Holy Queen of Heaven and Earth - Holy Queen of Love and Hearts and Mercy
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Daniel's Vision of the Four Beasts

1In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 2Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel's Vision of the Ancient of Days

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel's Visions Interpreted

15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

28Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

King James Bible




I sense you are trying to say something.

Forgive me...
 
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Erose

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evidently they didn't teach that in Antioch. It's also not taught in the bible. Mary was the mother of Jesus yes. Jesus is God yes. He is a part of the Godhead. Mary is not the mother of God The Father and not the mother of the Holy Spirit. So she is not the mother of God. There are 3 personalities that make up God. She is the mother of Jesus' physical human body. That's it. After the birth of Jesus her role was completed. Yes she did raise Jesus from a child. Then what did she do? Nothing.
Here is the problem with your logic here. God is not made up of three parts. There is no parts in God. Jesus Christ, God the Son, IS God. This does not take away the fact that the Father IS God and the Holy Spirit IS God, and none are just a 3rd of God, each one is wholly God. So if Jesus is God the Son, and God the Son is God, and Mary is His mother, then she is the mother of God. Not the mother of the Father, nor of the Spirit, but the mother of the Son. So when you deny that Mary is the Mother of God, you are saying more against the Son's Incarnation than you are against Mary.

Concerning her title of Queen of Heaven, this too is tied to Christ as well. In the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, the kings practiced polygamy, and thus what occurred, is that the wives of the kings were not considered queens, as that would give the kingdom of Israel more than one queen, but rather it was the mothers of the kings that considered the queens, the establishment of the queen (mother) is attributed to King Solomon, when he had a chair positioned at his right side for his mother. Anyway the Kingship of Christ is in line with the Davidic line, and thus if falls to the fact that if Jesus is the King of Heaven, then Mary, His mother, must then be queen. If one rejects one then they must reject the other.

To summarize, if one claims that Mary is not the Mother of God, then they are also saying that Jesus is not God the Son, or at least rejecting the Doctrine of the Incarnation. Also if you claim that Mary is not the Queen of Heaven, then you are also claiming that Jesus isn't the King of Heaven. They go hand in hand.
 
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JacksBratt

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Here is the problem with your logic here. God is not made up of three parts. There is no parts in God. Jesus Christ, God the Son, IS God. This does not take away the fact that the Father IS God and the Holy Spirit IS God, and none are just a 3rd of God, each one is wholly God. So if Jesus is God the Son, and God the Son is God, and Mary is His mother, then she is the mother of God. Not the mother of the Father, nor of the Spirit, but the mother of the Son. So when you deny that Mary is the Mother of God, you are saying more against the Son's Incarnation than you are against Mary.

Concerning her title of Queen of Heaven, this too is tied to Christ as well. In the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, the kings practiced polygamy, and thus what occurred, is that the wives of the kings were not considered queens, as that would give the kingdom of Israel more than one queen, but rather it was the mothers of the kings that considered the queens, the establishment of the queen (mother) is attributed to King Solomon, when he had a chair positioned at his right side for his mother. Anyway the Kingship of Christ is in line with the Davidic line, and thus if falls to the fact that if Jesus is the King of Heaven, then Mary, His mother, must then be queen. If one rejects one then they must reject the other.

To summarize, if one claims that Mary is not the Mother of God, then they are also saying that Jesus is not God the Son, or at least rejecting the Doctrine of the Incarnation. Also if you claim that Mary is not the Queen of Heaven, then you are also claiming that Jesus isn't the King of Heaven. They go hand in hand.
Well, that is an interesting line of logic.

However, If Jane could not carry a baby to term, while Wendy could. So when Jane got pregnant they put the embryo in Wendy's womb. Wendy delivers the baby....

Who is the mother? Not Wendy, she just carried the baby. Jane is the mother.

Now, what if Jane's egg was fertilized in 2000 and the embryo was frozen and put in Wendy's womb in 2200 and she brought the baby to term... Jane is still the mother.

Now, Jesus was the "Son of God" since before creation. He, Jesus, was the Son of God and the creator.

How can Mary be the Mother of a deity that existed before time?
God even said that He sent His only Son... therefore His Son was His Son before Mary was born.

So, yes, Mary is the mother of the human part of Jesus. Definitely.

However, she is not the mother of God the Son. No part of Mary has anything to contribute to the "God" part of Jesus. Mary gave the human part of Jesus. Mary gave her ovum and that was it. God gave the rest. The God part had existed from before time.

She is not the "Mother of God" and thus not the queen of Heaven.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Here is the problem with your logic here. God is not made up of three parts. There is no parts in God. Jesus Christ, God the Son, IS God. This does not take away the fact that the Father IS God and the Holy Spirit IS God, and none are just a 3rd of God, each one is wholly God. So if Jesus is God the Son, and God the Son is God, and Mary is His mother, then she is the mother of God. Not the mother of the Father, nor of the Spirit, but the mother of the Son. So when you deny that Mary is the Mother of God, you are saying more against the Son's Incarnation than you are against Mary.

Concerning her title of Queen of Heaven, this too is tied to Christ as well. In the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, the kings practiced polygamy, and thus what occurred, is that the wives of the kings were not considered queens, as that would give the kingdom of Israel more than one queen, but rather it was the mothers of the kings that considered the queens, the establishment of the queen (mother) is attributed to King Solomon, when he had a chair positioned at his right side for his mother. Anyway the Kingship of Christ is in line with the Davidic line, and thus if falls to the fact that if Jesus is the King of Heaven, then Mary, His mother, must then be queen. If one rejects one then they must reject the other.

To summarize, if one claims that Mary is not the Mother of God, then they are also saying that Jesus is not God the Son, or at least rejecting the Doctrine of the Incarnation. Also if you claim that Mary is not the Queen of Heaven, then you are also claiming that Jesus isn't the King of Heaven. They go hand in hand.

Jesus prayed to God The Father. If they are not 3 distinct personalities that make up the Godhead. Then why would God pray to Himself?
 
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Erose

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Jesus prayed to God The Father. If they are not 3 distinct personalities that make up the Godhead. Then why would God pray to Himself?
No one said that there isn't three Persons who are God. What is being said is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are NOT three parts of God. So the Son isn't a 1/3 of God, the Father isn't a 1/3 of God, and the Holy Spirit isn't a 1/3 of God. The Son is wholly God, the Father is wholly God, and the Holy Spirit is wholly God, yet not three Gods, but one God. Yet there are three Persons who are God. That is the mystery of the Trinity.

So when the title is given to Christ's mother as being the Mother of God it isn't being claimed that she is the mother of the Trinity, no she is the mother of one Person of the Trinity. She didn't beget His divinity, but rather His humanity only; but Jesus is one person, and not two, so if Mary is the mother of Jesus even in giving Him His humanity, she is still His (a person) mother.

Thus the title of Mother of God, says more about Christ's Incarnation and what that means, than it does about Mary.
 
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Erose

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Well, that is an interesting line of logic.

However, If Jane could not carry a baby to term, while Wendy could. So when Jane got pregnant they put the embryo in Wendy's womb. Wendy delivers the baby....

Who is the mother? Not Wendy, she just carried the baby. Jane is the mother.

Now, what if Jane's egg was fertilized in 2000 and the embryo was frozen and put in Wendy's womb in 2200 and she brought the baby to term... Jane is still the mother.

Now, Jesus was the "Son of God" since before creation. He, Jesus, was the Son of God and the creator.

How can Mary be the Mother of a deity that existed before time?
God even said that He sent His only Son... therefore His Son was His Son before Mary was born.

So, yes, Mary is the mother of the human part of Jesus. Definitely.

However, she is not the mother of God the Son. No part of Mary has anything to contribute to the "God" part of Jesus. Mary gave the human part of Jesus. Mary gave her ovum and that was it. God gave the rest. The God part had existed from before time.

She is not the "Mother of God" and thus not the queen of Heaven.
Here is the part you are missing here, Jesus Christ is only ONE person. He is fully God, and fully man, possessing two distinct natures one Divine and the other human; but He is still only ONE person. Mary didn't give birth to just a husk of a human body in which God the Son came down to possess; no she gave birth to a PERSON. A person who is both God and Man. You are right she isn't the source of Jesus' divinity, but she is the source of Jesus' humanity. And whether you understand the nature of the doctrine of the Incarnation or not the fact still remains: Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, who is God; thus she is the mother of God.
 
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JacksBratt

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Here is the part you are missing here, Jesus Christ is only ONE person. He is fully God, and fully man, possessing two distinct natures one Divine and the other human; but He is still only ONE person. Mary didn't give birth to just a husk of a human body in which God the Son came down to possess; no she gave birth to a PERSON. A person who is both God and Man. You are right she isn't the source of Jesus' divinity, but she is the source of Jesus' humanity. And whether you understand the nature of the doctrine of the Incarnation or not the fact still remains: Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, who is God; thus she is the mother of God.
I liked it better when we were on the same page with your statement:

Thus the title of Mother of God, says more about Christ's Incarnation and what that means, than it does about Mary.

I can take a piece of wood and make it into a cup... It can hold muddy water, clean water, beer, wine and even the most expensive champagne or priceless wine.. It's still a created wooden cup. What it holds is what is important.

Mary was a vessel. She was and is honored among women.

She was, in a loose sense, the mother of God..... in His human context.

She was not the mother of the creator... He existed before time.

Anyway, I doubt that we are going to change our views.
 
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Erose

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I liked it better when we were on the same page with your statement:

Thus the title of Mother of God, says more about Christ's Incarnation and what that means, than it does about Mary.

I can take a piece of wood and make it into a cup... It can hold muddy water, clean water, beer, wine and even the most expensive champagne or priceless wine.. It's still a created wooden cup. What it holds is what is important.

Mary was a vessel. She was and is honored among women.

She was, in a loose sense, the mother of God..... in His human context.

She was not the mother of the creator... He existed before time.

Anyway, I doubt that we are going to change our views.
Do you or do you not agree that Mary gave birth to a person?
 
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