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Featured Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HRDJ, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I attend a Filipino church and a brother in my bible study group told us about his uncle who died who was catholic. Their church told the family his uncle is suffering in purgatory and they could have him released for 5000 php. That's equivalent to about $120 USD.
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Of course it wasn't a new religion that's why it was called the reformation. Going back to what the church originally taught and doing away with the "oral traditions" that had been corrupted.
     
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  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Yes the inquisitions also played a huge role in the reformation.
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Many people don't realize that the teachings of purgatory actually began in the 12th century. The same time when the inquisitions began and the corruption in the catholic church. The selling of indulgences also appears during that time. These are what led to the reformation. The first Christian writings containing purgatory were written in the late 12th century. Purgatory was used as a way to solicit more indulgences which the church leaders used to gain more wealth and power. Indulgences were taught before the 12th century but it was not generally given to people in exchange for tithes or alms. Pope Gregory VII became pope in 1173AD and was the first to sanction the inquisitions in 1184AD in France where nonbelievers and anyone who opposed the catholic teachings were tortured and executed. The inquisitions continued for 724 years and during that time was sanctioned by exactly 100 popes. The first appearance of purgatory in Christian writings appears between 1160AD-1180AD. Purgatory was used to solicit indulgences for the remission of venial sin, which venial sin is never mentioned in the bible and the teaching of venial sin contradicts the scriptures because in almost every case where forgiveness of sin is mentioned in the bible Jesus' sacrifice is said to have removed all sin. Furthermore Paul teaches that we are made holy and blameless without a single fault in God's sight and we are able to enter heaven's Most Holy Place by Jesus' sacrifice. Paul also teaches us exactly when this takes place. He said we are made right in God's sight when we believe in Jesus Christ. Hence the vail was torn from top to bottom.

    “For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:25-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    Romans 3:25-26; For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

    “Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”
    ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    Colossians 1:22; Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

    “Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    1 Corinthians 6:11; Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    “Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
    ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    1 Peter 3:18; Christ suffered#:18a Some manuscripts read died. for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.#:18b Or in spirit.

    “And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    Romans 8:10; And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life#:10 Or your spirit is alive. because you have been made right with God.

    “Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices. And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-20‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    Hebrews 10:17-20; Then he says,“I will never again remembertheir sins and lawless deeds.”#:17 Jer 31:34b.And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.A Call to PersevereAnd so, dear brothers and sisters,#:19 Greek brothers. we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death,#:20 Greek Through his flesh. Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.

    Notice that in every one of these scriptures Paul and Peter are speaking in the past tense. We are reconciled, made right with God. This indicates that this has already taken place. Paul also say that sinners are made right with God. Notice when Paul says we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place there is absolutely nothing mentioned about purgatory or purification. If the apostles did in fact teach purgatory this is where Paul would've mentioned it. For him to say we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place without mentioning purgatory would be deceiving or not giving us a full understanding of what it required to enter heaven if purgatory was necessary. The catholic church only has 3 sentences throughout the entire bible they claim is proof of purgatory. Two are from parables taken out of context and the third is an assumption that contradicts what Jesus actually said. The first one is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

    “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:11-15‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    1 Corinthians 3:11-15; For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

    When you read 11-15 it surely looks like Paul could be talking about purgatory. But if you back up and read verses 1-10 and examine the context you can see that he is talking about the Corinthians arguing about some of them being followers of Paul and some are followers of Apollos. Paul is using this parable to explain how both of them are working toward the same goal and both of them will be rewarded in heaven according to their works.

    “Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-10‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    1 Corinthians 3:1-10; Dear brothers and sisters,#:1a Greek Brothers. when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people.#:1b Or to people who have the Spirit. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world?After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building.Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

    Next is Matthew 5:26.

    “And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:26‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    http://bible.com/116/mat.5.26.nlt

    Again when you look at just this verse it looks like it could be talking about purgatory. But if you look at verses 1-25 and read the full context you can see Jesus is talking about reconciling your differences with others.

    ““You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. “So if you are presenting a sacrifice at the altar in the Temple and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you, leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God. “When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:21-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    http://bible.com/116/mat.5.21-26.nlt

    We must understand that in every case of a parable being used in the bible it is used to support a specific topic that is currently being discussed. One doesn't talk about a specific topic then give a parable about something that is not relevant to the topic they are discussing. That wouldn't make any sense and it would confuse the person who is being taught. The last verse catholics claim as proof of purgatory is Matthew 12:32

    “Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    http://bible.com/116/mat.12.32.nlt

    Here the catholic church is making an assumption. Jesus does not say there is forgiveness of sin in the world to come. In fact He says the opposite. He says sins won't be forgiven in the world to come. These three tiny pieces of the bible are the only "proof" the catholic church has of purgatory. You can clearly see that these are not teaching about purgatory the church is trying so hard to find evidence that doesn't exist so they resort to taking tiny pieces of scriptures out of context to try to support this teaching. This is why the catholic church always resorts to the teachings of the "oral traditions". Because they cannot make a solid case based on the scriptures. This is also why the reformation came about and why sola scriptura was instituted. The oral traditions of the church by this time were corrupted beyond recognition and the only thing they knew for sure was that the original scriptures of the apostles were still intact. The scriptures provided more than enough information to teach us what we need to know for salvation and the history of Christianity. So we should disregard beliefs that are not specifically mentioned in the bible because of the actions of the men from which they came. Jesus warned us to beware of false prophets who are really viscous wolves in disguise. He said you can identify them by their actions. Clearly the actions of the men who sanctioned the inquisitions were not from God and the same can be said about their teachings. Now I would like to add that I do not see this type of behavior in the catholic church today. But those oral traditions are still taught in the catholic church. The reason being the catholic church cannot admit to making mistakes because of their claims to papal and magisterial infallibility. If they admitted to the mistakes that we're made it would destroy their credibility as being led by the Holy Spirit and the papal and magisterial infallibility. Let's not hate our catholic brothers & sisters for their ignorance to these facts. Most of them do truly honor God but they have been misled. They try so diligently to defend what they believe is the true word of God and I applaud them for that. Many of them are completely unaware of the origins of the controversial teachings of the catholic church. As Christians it is our God given duty to proclaim the truth and help them understand. Let us always remember Jesus' two most important commandments for all of the 10 commandments are based on these two commandments.

    “Jesus replied, “‘You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:37-40‬ ‭NLT‬‬
     
  5. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    The tell you that you can do x, y and z and be saved. It's very much like advertising at times.
    Actually, you're wrong, but I doubt you'd read it, so I won't prove it.
    Tetzel was the root. The Church gave Luther a hard time, no doubt, because he wasn't a very good priest.
    It's not debatable. There is no teaching, nowhere, no how ever that says you can buy your way into heaven.
    [/quote]

    Actually, I would say both the shepherd and the sheep pay the price for going down the "wrong path."

    "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." - Matthew 15:14
    [/quote] But it's different. It's the sighted leading the blind. The knowledgeable leading the ignorant.
    Might sound like it to you, but it's not. Good works proceed from the grace of God.
    Not even close. What Tetzel did was local to a part of Germany. That's why a lot of Germany is still Catholic. All of the donations to build St. Peter's were given willingly. They even all thought they were getting something in return, but what Tetzel was saying was wrong. The fact is that donations were made to build St. Peter's and those who gave money were told exactly where it was going.
    Oh, so I guess you're ready to send the entire Baptist Church to hell because of its corrupt pastors? I'm not. I know there's good ones like Dr. Stanley and Andy and there's some who aren't. That doesn't make the whole barrel spoiled.
    It's a good idea for the faithful to keep the Church on its mission. That we can agree on.
     
  6. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Primer on Indulgences | Catholic Answers
    Those who claim that indulgences are no longer part of Church teaching have the admirable desire to distance themselves from abuses that occurred around the time of the Protestant Reformation. They also want to remove stumbling blocks that prevent non-Catholics from taking a positive view of the Church. As admirable as these motives are, the claim that indulgences are not part of Church teaching today is false.

    This is proved by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states, "An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).

    Indulgences are part of the Church’s infallible teaching. This means that no Catholic is at liberty to disbelieve in them. The Council of Trent stated that it "condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them"(Trent, session 25, Decree on Indulgences). Trent’s anathema places indulgences in the realm of infallibly defined teaching.

    The pious use of indulgences dates back into the early days of the Church, and the principles underlying indulgences extend back into the Bible itself. Catholics who are uncomfortable with indulgences do not realize how biblical they are. The principles behind indulgences are as clear in Scripture as those behind more familiar doctrines, such as the Trinity.

    Before looking at those principles more closely, we should define indulgences. In his apostolic constitution on indulgences, Pope Paul VI said: "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentiarum Doctrina 1).

    This technical definition can be phrased more simply as, "An indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal (lasting only for a short time) penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven." To understand this definition, we need to look at the biblical principles behind indulgences.



    Principle 1: Sin Results in Guilt and Punishment



    When a person sins, he acquires certain liabilities: the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment. Scripture speaks of the former when it pictures guilt as clinging to our souls, making them discolored and unclean before God: "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool" (Is. 1:18). This idea of guilt clinging to our souls appears in texts that picture forgiveness as a cleansing or washing and the state of our forgiven souls as clean and white (cf. Ps. 51:4, 9).

    We incur not just guilt, but liability for punishment when we sin: "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless" (Is. 13:11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil" (Eccl. 12:14).



    Principle 2: Punishments are Both Temporal and Eternal



    The Bible indicates some punishments are eternal, lasting forever, but others are temporal. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

    We normally focus on the eternal penalties of sin, because they are the most important, but Scripture indicates temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16).



    Principle 3: Temporal Penalties May Remain When a Sin is Forgiven



    When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:

    "Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)

    Protestants realize that, while Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.

    Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).



    Principle 4: God Blesses Some People As a Reward to Others



    In Matthew 9:1-8, Jesus heals a paralytic and forgives his sins after seeing the faith of his friends. Paul also tells us that "as regards election [the Jews] are beloved for the sake of their forefathers" (Rom. 11:28).

    When God blesses one person as a reward to someone else, sometimes the specific blessing he gives is a reduction of the temporal penalties to which the first person is subject. For example, God promised Abraham that, if he could find a certain number of righteous men in Sodom, he was willing to defer the city’s temporal destruction for the sake of the righteous (Gen. 18:16-33; cf. 1 Kgs. 11:11-13; Rom. 11:28-29).



    Principle 5: God Remits Temporal Punishments through the Church



    God uses the Church when he removes temporal penalties. This is the essence of the doctrine of indulgences. Earlier we defined indulgences as "what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven." The members of the Church became aware of this principle through the sacrament of penance. From the beginning, acts of penance were assigned as part of the sacrament because the Church recognized that Christians must deal with temporal penalties, such as God’s discipline and the need to compensate those our sins have injured.

    In the early Church, penances were sometimes severe. For serious sins, such as apostasy, murder, and abortion, the penances could stretch over years, but the Church recognized that repentant sinners could shorten their penances by pleasing God through pious or charitable acts that expressed sorrow and a desire to make up for one’s sin.

    The Church also recognized the duration of temporal punishments could be lessened through the involvement of other persons who had pleased God. Scripture tells us God gave the authority to forgive sins "to men" (Matt. 9:8) and to Christ’s ministers in particular. Jesus told them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).

    If Christ gave his ministers the ability to forgive the eternal penalty of sin, how much more would they be able to remit the temporal penalties of sin! Christ also promised his Church the power to bind and loose on earth, saying, "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). As the context makes clear, binding and loosing cover Church discipline, and Church discipline involves administering and removing temporal penalties (such as barring from and readmitting to the sacraments). Therefore, the power of binding and loosing includes the administration of temporal penalties.



    Principle 6: God Blesses Dead Christians As a Reward to Living Christians



    From the beginning the Church recognized the validity of praying for the dead so that their transition into heaven (via purgatory) might be swift and smooth. This meant praying for the lessening or removal of temporal penalties holding them back from the full glory of heaven. For this reason the Church teaches that "indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of prayer" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 3). The custom of praying for the dead is not restricted to the Catholic faith. When a Jewish person’s loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddishfor eleven months after the death for the loved one’s purification.

    In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee finds the bodies of soldiers who died wearing superstitious amulets during one of the Lord’s battles. Judah and his men "turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out" (2 Macc. 12:42).

    The reference to the sin being "wholly blotted out" refers to its temporal penalties. The author of 2 Maccabees tells us that for these men Judah "was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness" (verse 45); he believed that these men fell asleep in godliness, which would not have been the case if they were in mortal sin. If they were not in mortal sin, then they would not have eternal penalties to suffer, and thus the complete blotting out of their sin must refer to temporal penalties for their superstitious actions. Judah "took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (verses 43, 46).

    Judah not only prayed for the dead, but he provided for them the then-appropriate ecclesial action for lessening temporal penalties: a sin offering. Accordingly, we may take the now-appropriate ecclesial action for lessening temporal penalties— indulgences—and apply them to the dead by way of prayer.

    These six principles, which we have seen to be thoroughly biblical, are the underpinnings of indulgences. But, the question of expiation often remains. Can we expiate our sins—and what does "expiate" mean anyway?

    Some criticize indulgences, saying they involve our making "expiation" for our sins, something which only Christ can do. While this sounds like a noble defense of Christ’s sufficiency, this criticism is unfounded, and most who make it do not know what the word "expiation" means or how indulgences work.

    Protestant Scripture scholar Leon Morris comments on the confusion around the word "expiate": "[M]ost of us . . . don’t understand ‘expiation’ very well. . . . [E]xpiation is . . . making amends for a wrong. . . . Expiation is an impersonal word; one expiates a sin or a crime" (The Atonement [Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1983], 151). The Wycliff Bible Encyclopedia gives a similar definition: "The basic idea of expiation has to do with reparation for a wrong, the satisfaction of the demands of justice through paying a penalty."

    Certainly when it comes to the eternal effects of our sins, only Christ can make amends or reparation. Only he was able to pay the infinite price necessary to cover our sins. We are completely unable to do so, not only because we are finite creatures incapable of making an infinite satisfaction, but because everything we have was given to us by God. For us to try to satisfy God’s eternal justice would be like using money we had borrowed from someone to repay what we had stolen from him. No actual satisfaction would be made (cf. Ps. 49:7-9, Rom. 11:35). This does not mean we can’t make amends or reparation for the temporal effects of our sins. If someone steals an item, he can return it. If someone damages another’s reputation, he can publicly correct the slander. When someone destroys a piece of property, he can compensate the owner for its loss. All these are ways in which one can make at least partial amends (expiation) for what he has done.

    An excellent biblical illustration of this principle is given in Proverbs 16:6, which states: "By loving kindness and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil" (cf. Lev. 6:1-7; Num. 5:5-8). Here we are told that a person makes temporal atonement (though never eternal atonement, which only Christ is capable of doing) for his sins through acts of loving kindness and faithfulness.
     
  7. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a country club for saints. Sporatic pornography use aside. IT's still sinful, and yes, the man is a Christian if he was baptized.
     
  8. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    I'm not "sending" anyone to "Hell", so please refrain from putting such words in my mouth.

    Eternal judgement belongs to the Lord.

    We as Christians, however, must speak up regarding deception, corruption and error.
     
  9. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Yes I agree the church is a hospital for sinners but I wasn't talking about sporatic sin. The point I was trying to convey is someone who habitually makes the same sin everyday is not showing signs of being a new creation. I sin everyday, I don't deny that and I sometimes question my own devotion to God but I don't habitually make the same sins everyday because of my own convictions I feel thanks to the Holy Spirit working in me. I'm just curious about what other Christians think about this. Now I would never tell someone they are not a Christian. I might say that what they're doing isn't Christian like.
     
  10. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

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    Holy Masses are offered up within Our Lord Jesus Holy Spirit God our Heavenly Fathers and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary's Holy Catholic Church for The Holy Souls in Purgatory and for the sick and dying and for the deceased with a donation personally made not to our Catholic Church but to people living in poverty in undeveloped nations such as India the Middle East Africa and or locally to people living in poverty and this is something I have done among others through and by our Lord Jesus Holy Spirit God our Heavenly Divine Majesty and Blessed Virgin Mother Mary but you know instead of sitting here on computers debating over religions you should really be at present praying for all Nations in relation to North Korea China Russia South Korea and the United States a great deal daily beseeching God our Heavenly Father on the Strength of His Bitter Passion immersing all hearts and souls in Jesus Ocean of Mercy Blessed Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Sacred Blood for the cessation of Gods wrath for non repentance of sins of mankind and for God to look upon The Most Holy Divine Countenance of Jesus The Most Holy Face of Jesus and through Jesus Holy Sacred Wounds for Gods Holy Gift of Love and Peace bestowed and flowing through all Nations hearts and souls including The Holy Spirit illuminating all hearts and souls with guilt and sorrow flowing through hearts and souls leading to a good repentance of sins made to Jesus in trust

    To avoid these calamities and nuclear missiles not fired off because this if it occurs will not only involve Guam but other Nations including the waters surrounding many Nations and missiles can land anywhere north west east of where these are intended

    This forthcoming week I suggest to every Christian serious in their relationship with our Lord Jesus to pray repent to Jesus thank Jesus for all of His Blessings Gifts and Graces in your lives and pray for your families friends and every Nations hearts and souls in your prayers you pray and i to Jesus God Holy Spirit in Gods Holy Divine Mercy Chaplet and Gods Holy Wound Chaplet and The Most Holy Rosary to our Heavenly Holy Queen Mother immersing hearts souls in every Nation urgently commencing today

    You are all wasting time when prayers are urgently needed by Jesus to change hearts minds in relation to many Nations including the current terrorism matters

    All prayers are heard through our Lord Jesus Precious Holy Sacred Blood of which is Jesus Merciful Saving Holy Grace within Our Lord Jesus Holy Divine Mercy just as Blood in the old days was offered to God our Heavenly Father so it is now Jesus Precious Holy Blood offered up to God in His Holy Prayers with The to date Holy requirement of God our Heavenly Fathers for repentance of sins made to Jesus in remorse sorrow for sins not just from minds in humility

    Jesus loves and favours humble souls in repentance to Him and Jesus has told His thousands of Catholic Saints Nuns Popes Priests over centuries in addition to thousands of Catholics non religious requesting repentance of sins made to Him from hearts in remorse and Christians out of everyone still debate this Holy request of Jesus in His own Teachings from Himself in His New Testament

    Repent and believe in The Good News

    Repent in My Name Jesus said to Saint Peter and His Disciples

    "repent to Jesus"

    "I truly tell you there is no life in you unless you eat My Body and Drink My Blood"

    "The everlasting Covenant" with Jesus

    Within our Lords Blessed Holy Sacred Sacraments contain His Holy Blessings Holy Gifts and Holy Graces now and eternally for those whom receive Jesus from Jearts not just minds with all the earthly focus and knowledge far from His Sufferings Sorrows Bitter Passion suffered Agonies and Life Sorrows far from Jesus in Communion with Him in Unity with Jesus from our hearts trusting in Jesus wholeheartedly

    Jesus said to His Saints

    "The greater the trust in Me the greater My Generosity"
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  11. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

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    Jesus God Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary have warned all of Gods Catholic Holy Saints for centuries that satan would continually attack His Holy Catholic Church and Jesus warned that The Most Holy Rosary prayed fervently to God our Heavenly Father through and to our Blessed Virgin Mother removes in our Lords Holy Will all evil all attacks all calamities and every Most Holy Rosary has been heard and responded by our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary for 7 years on "every matter" every cause prayed every heart soul person prayed for including the sick and dying of so many people with so many hearts souls lives changed and hundreds of Holy Miracles granted by Jesus in His Loving Holy Mercy
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    From a Lutheran perspective this is precisely the reason why trying to determine a person's salvation and status before God on the basis of their works is a problem. Because instead of looking to the Gospel and promises of God and them being efficacious, one is looking at the moral "progress" and external efforts of sinners. It is God's grace that saves us, not our efforts. One is either judging their brother, or they are trusting in their own efforts--both are problematic. Instead, trust in Jesus.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  13. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    In Christ's eyes I would be covered by the blood of Jesus.

    All men and women struggle with sins. Whether it be gluttony (wow, just look at the obesity in North America, not to mention the congregations of our churches ), covetousness (Wow, just look at this generation, they need every new thing and they need it NOW), Sloth, adultary (more than 50% of marriages fail, even in the church and among those who profess to be Christians).

    The list is endless. You cannot take one sin, that happens to be considered dirty, and tell that person they are damned. Then, ignore all the other sins of mankind, due to the fact that they are as common as belly buttons.

    We are human and incapable of living day to day without sinning. As long as we aknowledge Christ and strive to be more like Him, repentant of our sinful ways..... we have salvation...

    It is the right of no man to look at another and say "you sinner, you are not saved".

    Only Christ knows the heart, the trials, the battles and the struggles of each soul... He will be the one who judges...and THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!

    As for the Christian that struggles with a certain sin..... They are covered by the cleansing blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and in Gods eyes are white as snow. That is the blessed hope.
     
  14. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    I think that is the right approach. Tell them they are not behaving in a Christian manner. But have compassion for them in their battle.

    We all behave in unchristian manners. Just not continually.

    Consider yourself blessed if you are not shackled by an addiction to alcohol, drugs, pornography, sex, lying, kleptomania, gambling, workaholic, food, exercise, coveting cars, jewelry and other possessions, or the dark and stormy road of a mental illness.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Everything your saying is based on assumptions made by the church and not from the teachings of Jesus or the apostles. Let's take a look at what the catholic catechism has to say about purgatory.

    1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

    1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

    First notice the dates of these councils that spawned the very first teachings of purgatory in Christianity. In the catechism is specifically states the catholic church formulated the doctrine of purgatory at the council of Florence and Trent. Both of these councils took place during the worst time of the catholic church. It is no secret about the corruption and downright despicable nature of the leaders of the church during this time. The abuse of indulgences was widely spread throughout the catholic church and the same with the inquisitions. These men who consecrated these councils had the authority to put an end to these terrible atrocities but didn't. By this we can see that there was much greed and heartless cruelty in these men, both are not attributes of men who are guided by the Holy Spirit. So how can we trust these men to dictate doctrine and oral tradition? It is clear by their actions and their interpretation of scripture that they were not guided by the Holy Spirit when they formulated the doctrine of purgatory. Notice their biblical references to support this new doctrine. 1 Corinthians 3:15, 1 Peter 1:7, and Matthew 12:32

    “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:11-15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

    When you read 11-15 it surely looks like Paul could be talking about purgatory. But if you back up and read verses 1-10 and examine the context you can see that he is talking about the Corinthians arguing about some of them being followers of Paul and some are followers of Apollos. Paul is using this parable to explain how both of them are working toward the same goal and both of them will be rewarded in heaven according to their works.

    “Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

    In every single case of a parable being used in the bible it is used to support the topic that is currently being discussed. Paul is using this parable to reiterate on what he said about how "The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work." Paul doesn't say anything about a purification. He talks about how some works are burned up and some works survive the test of fire. He does not say the builder is tested by fire he says the works are tested by fire. Paul is talking about works throughout the entire chapter and never once mentions sin.

    1 Peter 1:6-7

    “So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.”
    ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭NLT‬‬

    You can clearly see that Peter is referring to our trials here on earth and that he is not talking about venial sin or temporal punishment which are also fabrications created by these same men to promote more solicitation of indulgences. Yet the catholic church still holds to these doctrines and teachings today. He says that trials are to test our faith as fire tests and purifies gold. According to the catholic teaching of purgatory it is not to test our faith it is to remove the "unhealthy attachment of venial sin". Peter hasn't said a single word about sin.

    Matthew 12:32

    “Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NLT‬‬

    Notice in the catechism they admit that their evidence comes from this sentence so there is no other evidence that confirms this assumption. They say that because Jesus said you will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come that is an indication that there is forgiveness in the world to come. But that is not what Jesus said. That is an assumption made by these men who were not guided by the Holy Spirit. Because all 3 of these verses are not teaching about purgatory, venial sin, or temporal punishment that is evidence that these men were attempting to twist the context of these verses to support their soliciting of indulgences.

    Another thing catholics tend to mention when they're doctrines are being challenged is apostolic succession. When they can't defend their doctrines with the scriptures they resort to the apostolic succession. 100 popes sanctioned the inquisitions for 724 years. The line of succession came thru those 100 popes who gave the magisterium the permission to torture and execute nonbelievers and anyone who opposed the catholic teaching. The inquisitions were not an isolated event. It's jurisdiction was quite vast it took place in France, Spain, Asia, Africa, Portugal, North America, and South America. In some cases the church did not do the actual torture and execution but they did sentence these people to be tortured and executed.

    Sorry for the super long post but I've been thru these debates enough times that I prefer to just shoot down everything they will throw at me before they throw it otherwise you end up with a lot of short posts and by the time you finish the main point was lost a long time ago. I think it's much more comprehensible when you can see the whole picture instead of many tiny pieces. You can see there is a definite pattern to the actions and behavior of the church leaders during this time period.
     
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  16. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    "Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary"

    Is this the Godhead in which you believe? If so, it is not the Trinity believed in by orthodox Christians.
     
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  17. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Yes but when we look to the gospel it tells us that we are changed and made a new creation. Are we a new creation if we still keep our same bad habits? That's my question. Are we to simply keep getting drunk at parties and indulging in sexual immorality or are we to try to refrain from these things and at least make an attempt to change our lives for the better?
     
  18. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Some things are pretty straight forward. Pretty obvious and issues of our old self.

    Some things are battles of our core. Battles that others cannot understand.

    Again, we are not to judge but to encourage each other in our struggles. Not condemn.
     
  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Interesting.
    Islam also believes in, and holds Mary in high esteem, even believing she was a virgin when she had Jesus. [Judaism does not believe in this, but I could be wrong]
    But their account of the birth is more similar to that of Ishmael in the wilderness instead of in manger.

    Mary in Islam - Wikipedia
    *snip*

    The virgin birth of Jesus is supremely important in Islam, as one of the most important miracles of God. ...
    According to exegesis and literature, Gabriel appeared to Mary, who was still young in age, in the form of a well-made man with a "shining face" and announced to her the birth of Jesus........

    The Qur’an's narrative of the virgin birth is somewhat different from that in the New Testament.
    The Qur’an states that when the pains of childbirth came upon Mary, she held onto a nearby palm tree, at which point a voice came from "beneath the (palm-tree)" or "beneath her", which said " "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; "

    Genesis 16:
    6 Abram replied, “Look, she is your servant, so deal with her as you see fit.” Then Sarai treated Hagar so harshly that she finally ran away.
    7 The angel of the Lord found Hagar beside a spring of water in the wilderness, along the road to Shur.
    8 The angel said to her, “Hagar, Sarai’s servant, where have you come from, and where are you going?”

    15 So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram named his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Yes I agree. I did say in my previous post that I would never say someone is not a Christian. I might say what they are doing is not very Christian but I wouldn't say they are not a Christian.
     
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