Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

Vicomte13

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I respectfully disagree....there are many, many "good people" (moral people) who do good deeds.

An individual can spend his or her entire lifetime doing good deeds (helping the poor, caring for orphans, etc)....however, if that individual does not have a relationship with Jesus Christ, the only true God....all is for nought

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And I respectfully disagree with you. The person who has done good works all his life HAS a relationship with Jesus Christ, and has had for his whole life. He just doesn't consciously know that and realize it in a way that he can articulate or understand. When he dies, he will meet the shepherd face to face and recognize his as the voice he was always following. He didn't know Jesus by the name Jesus, but he knew him nevertheless, as evidenced by his fruit. Jesus, of course, knew him all along, and always was leading this sheep in a different sheepfold.

Saintly non-Christians are crypto-Christians. Their great surprise will be discovering that they always knew Christ and were always following him, but didn't know they knew him because they didn't recognize the foreign name given to that voice within them they always followed to do all those good things.

Jesus knows his sheep and they answer to his voice.
WE can only know his sheep for sure by their fruits. You will know them by their fruits. Jesus said that.
And that applies even to people who call themselves "Hindus" because they didn't know better.

'He who loves me is he who does my commandments.'
 
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Vicomte13

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This is going to be made immensely difficult by the simple fact that there is no such thing as "Protestant Christianity". The term "Protestant" is a pretty loose umbrella term that encompasses just about everything that came out of the Reformation and since--from Lutherans to Presbyterians to Mennonites to Methodists to Baptists to Quakers to Adventists to Pentecostals to Non-Denominationals. And, trouble is, that compare Lutheranism to the Baptist tradition and we see they are quite different, in fact there is a far bigger difference between Lutheran teaching and Baptist teaching then there is between Lutheran teaching and Roman Catholic teaching.

It's better to instead think of there being Protestantisms, rather than a single Protestantism. Because "Protestant" ends up mostly being a kind of catch-all label.



Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is by God's grace which we have on Christ's account which through the Holy Spirit in us we cooperate with in order to love God, do good works, and live in faith. That is, salvation in Roman Catholic teaching comes from God working in us and we cooperating with His grace by the power of the Holy Spirit to live a life of faith and good works. This differs from many/most Protestant schools of thought,

Lutheran and Reformed theology (Presbyterianism is Reformed) holds that salvation is a monergistic work of God (meaning God acts alone) rather than a synergistic work (God and human beings cooperating together); and that salvation is by God's grace which we have on Christ's account which the Holy Spirit works in us as faith through which we are justified, and thus we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

I'd say that if your friend really believed in salvation by grace alone through faith alone on Christ's account alone, then your friend shouldn't doubt or question the salvation of Roman Catholics because if salvation by grace alone through faith and Catholics have faith in Christ then they are saved. By suggesting that Roman Catholics aren't saved because they have some wrong beliefs is to deny salvation by grace alone through faith and to say that we are saved by what we do, think, say, or believe--in this case, by believing the right things, which is salvation by works.



Yes, you can attend and visit. But you won't be allowed to receive the Lord's Supper. In Catholicism one must be a Catholic in good standing to receive Communion. But no one is going to prohibit you from visiting and seeing what a Catholic Mass looks like first hand.



See above. There are different terms for this: Holy Communion, the Lord's Supper, The Lord's Table, and the Holy Eucharist.



Generally, Protestants don't see it as being beneficial to ask the angels and saints to pray for us; but it depends on what kind of Protestant you talk to as to why. For example, in Lutheranism we say that since we cannot know for certain that the saints and angels can hear us that it is perhaps preferable to not ask for their prayers (they might be able to, but we can't know because it's not revealed to us one way or the other); however by the same token we do believe that the saints and angels DO pray for us nonetheless. So even though we don't ask them to pray, we believe they in fact do pray for us anyway. Other Protestant traditions will probably argue that since the Bible is silent on all these things one shouldn't believe them at all (again, it depends on who ask).



St. Joseph is honored (by Catholics and other Christians alike), but the reason why the Blessed Virgin Mary is so honored (not just by Catholics mind you, but also Lutherans, Anglicans, and Orthodox as well) is because she is the mother of Christ, she bore God in the flesh in her womb for nine months and then gave birth to God in the flesh. Thus we honor her in the way in which Scripture confesses, calling her blessed among women (Luke 1:42) and the highly favored of God (Luke 1:28); we call her Theotokos ("God-bearer") and mother of God because Jesus Christ, her Child, is true and very God. She is the blessed virgin mother of God, blessed among women, her womb as sacred as the ark of the covenant and the Holy of Holies itself for it housed God Almighty Himself.



No. Though generally Catholics recognize that people will be judged on the basis of what they know and the good they sought to do based on what knowledge of the truth was available to them; and thus if one never knew Christ through no fault of their own, that will be taken into account at Judgment.



Catholics do evangelism. But evangelism doesn't necessarily look the same way among more traditional churches as it does among modern Evangelical types of churches. Evangelism is chiefly about preaching the good news of Jesus, not trying to ruthlessly convert people to Christianity or beat them over the head with a club.

-CryptoLutheran
I agree with the Crypto-Lutheran
 
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Goatee

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And I respectfully disagree with you. The person who has done good works all his life HAS a relationship with Jesus Christ, and has had for his whole life. He just doesn't consciously know that and realize it in a way that he can articulate or understand. When he dies, he will meet the shepherd face to face and recognize his as the voice he was always following. He didn't know Jesus by the name Jesus, but he knew him nevertheless, as evidenced by his fruit. Jesus, of course, knew him all along, and always was leading this sheep in a different sheepfold.

Saintly non-Christians are crypto-Christians. Their great surprise will be discovering that they always knew Christ and were always following him, but didn't know they knew him because they didn't recognize the foreign name given to that voice within them they always followed to do all those good things.

Jesus knows his sheep and they answer to his voice.
WE can only know his sheep for sure by their fruits. You will know them by their fruits. Jesus said that.
And that applies even to people who call themselves "Hindus" because they didn't know better.

'He who loves me is he who does my commandments.'

Great post
 
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Goatee

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Think of the people hidden away in a far flung jungle that modern man has never been to.

They are good people. Caring, loving and doing everything for each other. They love each other deeply and give to all as if to themselves.

They have never heard of Jesus or the Bible.

Will God disown them because they never knew Jesus? Will He welcome them with open arms because of their true love for each other?

I believe that God would embrace them as His own. They, that pleased God with their 'Works'
 
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HeatRamosHidden

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Protestantism and Catholicism are both wrong. You can't listen to Kenneth Copeland and break bread with him, and you can't listen to the Anti-Christ Papacy. Sure, Pope Francis is nice, but the Mass, sacramental salvation and other tenants of the Catholic Church are all falsehoods.

Protestants, as I call them, think too much about their church. If you are non denominational, and only care about what God and his servants think, then that's good. If you care about what you think and only what you think about the Church you're in, there's no room for criticism.
 
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dqhall

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HI - I am not posting this to start any kind of fight. I am just really really curious and confused.
Currently, I am attending a presbyterian church and have many bible conservative friends. I am pretty new to Christianity and when I ask about these, my friends tend to just brush it off as "because the pastor said..." or "Catholic is idolism..." kind of skewed judgement and opinions. So if you could please, just share what you think about my questions.... I have never studied or learned Catholic faith (if it is any different from Christianity I learned from my church), so please forgive my ignorance.

1. Catholics believe in Jesus as their savior and he is the son of the God. So Catholics do go to heaven as well, right? (My friend said in the Catholic faith, it said they have to do good things to be in Heaven, so they can't go to Heaven because Catholics don't believe in Jesus solely to go to heaven. Honestly, I didn't get what she meant.)


2. If i missed my church's sermon on Sunday morning, can I go to a Catholic mass? (I know going to a sermon is not 100% necessary action to take, but I like to have something in my weekend to keep my spirit up for the upcoming week.) As a non-Catholic, but Christian, can I attend the mass?

3. During the Catholic mass, when they give out the bread and wine part (I am sorry, I don't know what it is called...My church doesn't do it a lot..may be on Christmas only.). am I allowed to join because I was baptized as a Christian? Or is it solely for Catholic?

4. My church said I don't need to pray to my angel or saints or anyone except Jesus. Then what is the purpose of angels and saints? Even if the saints are not 'real' in protestant faith, isn't angel something the God said we all have? Should we just...ignore them?

5. What is the role of Mary in Catholic church? I know Catholics don't' worship her, but honor her because she was the mother of Jesus. Then why not honor Joseph, the father of Jesus, in the same respect? Why is the virgin birth so important? Isn't Nazareth's revival more amazing miracle? (Again, I am new to the faith, this question is out from my ignorance. Not trying ot compare miracles or anything like that)

6. Does Catholic really teach that non-believers who do good things also go to heaven?

7. I don't see a lot of Catholic evangelism movement as much as Protestant churches do. Is there reason for it or Catholics do have those movements but it is just not well known?



Thank you so much if you are answering any of the questions above. I am just really curious and confused.

Thank you
My dad is Protestant and my mother is Catholic. They sent me to a Protestant Sunday School. They did had stopped attending church, but wanted me to experience it. Late in life my mother returned to the Catholic Church. While visiting my parents during a holiday, I attended Mass with mom. There was a decent homily (sermon) and the hymns were pleasant. When it was time for communion, I stood in place while others went forward to take communion.

Catholics do evangelize. Mom was pressuring me to convert to Catholicism for years and sent me Catholic literature in the mail. Mom told me they (priests?) told her if she attended Mass she would go to heaven. She did not mention anything about good works or faith. She was against human trafficking. I could not argue with her about that. She told me some things are ecumenical. That means in common between different Christian sects.
 
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Vicomte13

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Catholics do believe in Jesus as the Son of God, but it's correct that they do not think that Faith in him is sufficient for us to be saved but, rather, that Faith AND the performance of good deeds is required.


Sure. There's no reason you cannot attend a Catholic Mass.


Solely for Catholics.


They are real, all right. You are just not supposed to pray to them rather than to Jesus or the Father.


There are a lot of questions there, but Catholics do more than honor Mary. They have attributed many powers and qualities to her that don't have a Biblical basis. As for why not to honor Joseph in a similar way, that's a good question.


Until recently, the answer would have been "no," but several recent popes have said that "good" pagans might be covered by the blood of Christ even if they've never heard of him. The idea now has widespread acceptance among Catholic laypersons.


They have them, but it's probably correct to say that they are less active than the Protestant movements.

I would agree with essentially everything Albion says, except for the last sentence. If you look across Africa, Latin America and Asia, all of the poor places in the world, you will see that the basic infrastructure of schools, hospitals and orphanages - if there is any at all - is predominantly Catholic. (Think Mother Theresa and the children of Calcutta.)

The Catholic network of schools, hospitals and orphanages that spans the globe down into the dusty and poor nooks and crannies just about everywhere you go IS Catholic evangelism. Likewise in the USA. AIDS hospice in most of America for 20 years was virtually 100% Catholic - not that the victims were necessarily Catholic, or even the employees, but the organizers and funding and administrative structure was. Ditto for refugee services all across America. The grotty, politically thankless job of dealing with poor people who don't have a steady Section 8 welfare check falls to the Christians, and the Catholics have an organized, structured system all over the world to do just specifically THAT. That IS Catholic evangelization. People can be forgiven for not seeing that, because it's so heavy on the "work" (running the hospitals, teaching the kids) and light on the "Word" (the "preaching" is done by the example of the people doing the work, with the Crucifix on the wall as often the only tangible reminder of WHY they are doing it). So yes, it is correct to say that the Catholic evangelism is a lot less visible than the Protestant, but if one looks, one realizes that it is much more pervasive - indeed, it is global - the Church IS the social welfare structure of a good part of Africa and the world Indian slums. But it's so self-effacing about it that it is generally not clearly seen as actually being missionary work that is being done. Protestants tend to equate missionary evangelization with preaching the Word. Catholics really believe in good works as prayers, and example as evangelization, and tend to think of missionary PREACHING to natives as being "proselytization", which has negative connotations to the Catholic mind (because words are wind, acts are what matter).
 
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Vicomte13

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The Bible teaches that no one is “good enough” to go to heaven. Although we can always find someone who is “worse” than we are, we have all sinned against God. As God views us, “there is none righteous, no not one. . . for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:10,23). That means we must be saved from our sins through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:15; Romans 3:24-26).

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Paul teaches that, yes. But little babies are people, and they are without sin, so if Paul is taken literally, he's wrong. There are plenty of people - hundreds of millions of them - who have never sinned against God. They're all under the age of 3 or 4, probably, maybe younger, but there is nobody in the first 6 months of life anyway who has sinned against God. And they're all people. So if one must take Paul absolutely literally that ALL have sinned, then Paul is wrong and his teaching must be rejected. If one understands Paul to mean "anybody reading this and understanding it is aware that he has sinned" - that is certainly true. But as a blanket absolute statement, what Paul says there is not true. ALL have NOT sinned. Obviously. There are at least 100 million people under the age of one, and not one of them has sinned.
 
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Korean-American Christian

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Paul teaches that, yes. But little babies are people, and they are without sin, so if Paul is taken literally, he's wrong. There are plenty of people - hundreds of millions of them - who have never sinned against God. They're all under the age of 3 or 4, probably, maybe younger, but there is nobody in the first 6 months of life anyway who has sinned against God. And they're all people. So if one must take Paul absolutely literally that ALL have sinned, then Paul is wrong and his teaching must be rejected. If one understands Paul to mean "anybody reading this and understanding it is aware that he has sinned" - that is certainly true. But as a blanket absolute statement, what Paul says there is not true. ALL have NOT sinned. Obviously. There are at least 100 million people under the age of one, and not one of them has sinned.

My dear brother, EVERYONE is born with original sin....even little babies
 
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aiki

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Think of the people hidden away in a far flung jungle that modern man has never been to.

They are good people. Caring, loving and doing everything for each other. They love each other deeply and give to all as if to themselves.

They have never heard of Jesus or the Bible.

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Matthew 19:17
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God...."

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Will God disown them because they never knew Jesus? Will He welcome them with open arms because of their true love for each other?

Yes, He will judge the unrepentant wicked and punish them for their sin.

Psalms 1:5-6
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.


Human love is corrupted by selfishness and sin, it is contingent, and unholy, sentimental and fleshly. God's love is entirely different. His love is perfect, holy, just, true and self-sacrificing. He finds nothing noble, or worthy, or deserving of respect, then, in the love we manifest from within our own sin-cursed and fouled hearts (Jer. 17:9). At our best, we are vile, wicked creatures deserving only of His wrathful judgment. This is why His efforts to redeem us from ourselves are so incredible. It is also why no one can be saved apart from a saving faith in Christ.
 
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Vicomte13

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Otherwise, if you are a guest at a Catholic church, you should just go forward for a blessing or remain seated. Catholics as a rule don't believe it is good to commune non-Catholics, though there are exceptional circumstances possible.

Actually, what we believe is that BECAUSE the eucharist is LITERALLY the flesh and blood of God, that to touch it in an impure state, with unshriven sin, can actually HARM the individual who does so - he his bringing himself in an unclean and unconfessed state directly into contact with God, EATING God and taking God into a vessel that is filthy with sin.

This itself is a sin that is damaging to the individual. Because of what Catholics believe about the eucharist, we believe that we are PROTECTING visitors from inadvertently sinning and causing great harm to themselves.

That's why Catholics instruct non-Catholics not to take the eucharist in a Catholic church. It's like parents telling a kid not to stick a knife into an electric socket - trying to protect the kid.
 
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Vicomte13

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My dear brother, EVERYONE is born with original sin....even little babies

Yes, but that is not COMMITTING sin. A baby has not SINNED. He's born with sin upon him, but he has committed no act of sin. Paul said "All have SINNED", and if that is taken literally, it's false and it is wrong.
 
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aiki

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I believe that God would embrace them as His own. They, that pleased God with their 'Works'

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
 
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Goatee

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Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


Matthew 19:17
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God...."


Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."


John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.




Yes, He will judge the unrepentant wicked and punish them for their sin.

Psalms 1:5-6
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.


Human love is corrupted by selfishness and sin, it is contingent, and unholy, sentimental and fleshly. God's love is entirely different. His love is perfect, holy, just, true and self-sacrificing. He finds nothing noble, or worthy, or deserving of respect, then, in the love we manifest from within our own sin-cursed and fouled hearts (Jer. 17:9). At our best, we are vile, wicked creatures deserving only of His wrathful judgment. This is why His efforts to redeem us from ourselves are so incredible. It is also why no one can be saved apart from a saving faith in Christ.

Then you know not the mercy and love of God
 
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Vicomte13

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I know what the Catholics teach about receiving in a state of mortal sin. We don't agree with it, though. We teach the Eucharist is given for the forgiveness of sins. All that is needed is to approach the sacrament with faith.

I was just explaining, from the Catholic perspective, why Catholics tell non-Catholics not to take communion in a Catholic Church. It's not out of a question of fellowship or anything, but an actual desire to not harm the guest.

I'm pretty sure that a Lutheran such as yourself isn't worried about getting hurt by a cracker and some wine, but we are.
 
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aiki

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That is not true. Millions upon millions, billions over the ages, have never sinned, not once.

Oh? Then the Bible is wrong, is it? Or maybe babies are not born righteous but under the curse of the Fall, bearers of the consequences of Adam's sin (Ro. 5:12, 19; 1 Cor. 15:42, 43). They might not be guilty of a particular sin, but they are born with the stain of Adam's sin upon them. God's grace is, I believe, great enough to overlook this fact and to accept these little ones into His kingdom, but the rest of us who live to a point of accountability quickly demonstrate in our choices and behaviour our corruptness and the truth of Romans 3:23.
 
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