Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

[Vicomte13]

French Protestants probably would, if there were any.

I suppose the French should feel guilty about that fact. But they don't.

 

[kepha31]

How about people who "see" things that are not there?

Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity You may not be able to see my list of scriptures explaining and supporting purgatory because they don't fit your blinding preconceptions.
Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity <<<click here

 

[Uber Genius]

As I said, Christians vary widely in their answers to this question.

Yep your argument was turned into a straw man.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Lords table is not for forgiveness.

The only way you could get here is to have missed the service entirely.

The words of Christ are used every time we partake of communion. And as both of our books state, when two or more are gathered in my name and ask anything it will be done in heaven and on Earth.

So here is that prayer that we all ask and all give our Amen.

Here is the text of the services... You must have just missed it.

Please look it over. This does indeed have to do with our salvation, even though we don't understand it. We are part of a group. We do not stand alone.

The Holy Anaphora

Deacon: Let us stand aright! Let us stand in awe! Let us be attentive, that we may present the Holy Offering in peace.

People: A mercy of peace, a sacrifice of praise.

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

People: And with your spirit.

Priest: Let us lift up our hearts.

People: We lift them up to the Lord.

Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord.

People: It is proper and right.

Priest (in a low voice): It is proper and right to hymn You, to bless You, to praise You, to give thanks to You, and to worship You in every place of Your dominion. For You, O God, are ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, existing forever, forever the same, You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You brought us out of nothing into being, and when we had fallen away, You raised us up again. You left nothing undone until you had led us up to heaven and granted us Your Kingdom, which is to come. For all these things, we thank You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit: for all things we know and do not know, for blessings manifest and hidden that have been bestowed on us. We thank You also for this Liturgy, which You have deigned to receive from our hands, even though thousands of archangels and tens of thousands of angels stand around You, the Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, soaring aloft upon their wings,

And he exclaims:

Singing the triumphal hymn, exclaiming, proclaiming, and saying…

People: Holy, holy, holy, Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

Priest (in a low voice): Together with these blessed powers, Master, Who loves mankind, we also exclaim and say: Holy are You and most holy, You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. Holy are You and most holy, and sublime is Your glory. You so loved Your world that You gave Your only-begotten Son so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. When He had come and fulfilled for our sake the entire plan of salvation, on the night in which He was delivered up, or rather when He delivered Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure, and blameless hands, and, giving thanks and blessing, He hallowed and broke it, and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

The Priest exclaims:

Take, eat, this is My Body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins.

People: Amen.

The Priest then says in a low voice:

Likewise, after partaking of the supper, He took the cup, saying,

The Priest again exclaims:

Drink of this, all of you; this is My Blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.

People: Amen.

Then the Priest says in a low voice:

Remembering, therefore, this saving commandment and all that has been done for our sake: the Cross, the tomb, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand, and the second and glorious coming again.

And he exclaims:

Your own of Your own we offer to You, in all and for all.

People: We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.

Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we beseech and pray and entreat You: Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon the gifts here presented,

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Bread, says:

Bless, Master, the Holy Bread.

And the Priest blesses over the holy Bread and says:

And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Chalice, says:

Amen. Bless, Master, the holy Cup.

The Priest, blessing over the holy Chalice, says:

And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward both Holy Gifts, says:

Amen. Bless, Master, both the Holy Gifts.

The Priest, blessing both the Holy Bread and holy Chalice, says:

Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

Deacon: Amen. Amen. Amen.

The Priest says in a low voice:

So that they may be for those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, remission of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, boldness before You, not for judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer You this spiritual worship for those who have reposed in the faith: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith,

And he exclaims:

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary.

People: It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Logos. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.

The Priest says in a low voice:

For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy, glorious, and most praiseworthy apostles; for Saint(s) (Name), whose memory we celebrate; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, visit us, O God. And remember all who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection to life eternal (here the Priest commemorates by name those departed whom he wishes). Grant them rest, O our God, where the light of Your countenance keeps watch. Again we beseech You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, the presbyterate, the diaconate in Christ, and every priestly and monastic order. Again we offer You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and for those living pure and reverent lives. For civil authorities and our armed forces, grant that they may govern in peace, Lord, so that in their tranquility we, too, may live calm and serene lives, in all piety and virtue.

And he exclaims:

Among the first remember, Lord, our Archbishop (Name); grant him to Your holy churches in peace, safety, honor, and health, unto length of days, rightly teaching the word of Your truth.

The Deacon, facing the people, exclaims:

And remember those whom each one of us has in mind, and all the people.

People: And all the people.

The Priest prays the following prayer in a low voice:

Remember, Lord, this city in which we live, and every city and land, and the faithful who live in them. Remember, Lord, those who travel by land, sea, and air; the sick; the suffering; the captives; and their salvation. Remember those who bear fruit and do good works in Your holy churches and those who are mindful of the poor, and upon us all send forth Your mercies.

And he exclaims:

And grant that with one voice and one heart we may glorify and praise Your most honorable and majestic name, of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

People: Amen.

Priest: And the mercies of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, be with you all.

People: And with your spirit.

The people respond with Lord, have mercy, after each petition.

Deacon: Having commemorated all the saints, again and again, in peace, let us pray to the Lord.

For the precious Gifts here presented and consecrated, let us pray to the Lord.

That our God Who loves mankind, having accepted them at His holy and celestial and mystical altar as an offering of spiritual fragrance, may in return send down upon us the divine grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, let us pray.

For our deliverance from all affliction, wrath, danger, and necessity, let us pray to the Lord.

Help us, save us, have mercy on us, and protect us, O God, by Your grace.

That the whole day may be perfect, holy, peaceful, and sinless, let us ask the Lord.

The people respond with Grant this, O Lord, after each petition.

For an angel of peace, a faithful guide, a guardian of our souls and bodies, let us ask the Lord.

For pardon and remission of our sins and transgressions, let us ask the Lord.

For that which is good and beneficial for our souls, and for peace for the world, let us ask the Lord.

That we may complete the remaining time of our life in peace and repentance, let us ask the Lord.

And let us ask for a Christian end to our life, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good defense before the awesome judgment seat of Christ.

Deacon: Having asked for the unity of the faith and for the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To You, O Lord.

Priest (in a low voice): We entrust to You, loving Master, our whole life and hope, and we beseech, pray, and implore You: Grant us to partake of Your heavenly and awesome Mysteries from this sacred and spiritual table with a clear conscience for the remission of sins, the forgiveness of transgressions, the communion of the Holy Spirit, the inheritance of the Kingdom of Heaven, and boldness before You, not unto judgment or condemnation.

And he exclaims:

And grant us, Master, with boldness and without condemnation, to dare call You, the heavenly God, Father, and to say:

The catholic linchpin. There is no way to deny the Anaphora prayers are indeed from the Apostles.

1Co 14:16
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

*Yes, the Apostle Paul called them idiots.

Forgive me...

 

[JacksBratt]

Doctrine would be a teaching like... "Mary left her belt to St. Thomas"
It's not important to salvation and it's not required of a believer.

A Dogma would be like... Christ died and rose from the grave and ascended into heaven.
Something important to salvation that cannot be denied and still claim to be Christian.

Forgive me...

Was that not the problem with the RC church that Martin Luther brought to light? The fact that the leaders of the Church were way off base and refused to let the parishioners have copies of the scriptures to keep up themselves?
Dogma is saying that He Died on Friday, Rose 72 hours later, and that is supposed to be in conjunction with:

12:40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Mathew 12:40

No matter how you slice it 72 hours cannot cover 3 days and 3 nights, even if you Streeeeeeeetch the whole "nights" thing. You have not got enough days.
But, like I said, I would regret bringing that up.... it's really been beat to death in other threads and nobody is changing their view on either belief.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Was that not the problem with the RC church that Martin Luther brought to light? The fact that the leaders of the Church were way off base and refused to let the parishioners have copies of the scriptures to keep up themselves?
Dogma is saying that He Died on Friday, Rose 72 hours later, and that is supposed to be in conjunction with:

12:40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Mathew 12:40

No matter how you slice it 72 hours cannot cover 3 days and 3 nights, even if you Streeeeeeeetch the whole "nights" thing. You have not got enough days.
But, like I said, I would regret bringing that up.... it's really been beat to death in other threads and nobody is changing their view on either belief.

You're focused on the days and nights and not the number 3. Trinitarian is all over the place.

Christ died on Friday at the same time the lambs were being slaughtered in the Temple.
That's the first day by Hebrew reckoning.
Saturday in the grave as foreshadowed by the Sabbath.
That's a second day by Hebrew reckoning.
Rose from the grave after sundown Saturday night and before dawn Sunday.
That is a third day by Hebrew reckoning.

Let's not chase this rabbit though.

Forgive me...

 

[JacksBratt]

No, that's not what we say it is. It is not a ceremony, it is a sacrament. We call upon God who becomes physically present, in material form - bread and wine - and we eat God. Not figuratively, not symbolically, not "conceptually". Literally. The bread and wine of Catholic communion are literally God. When you touch them, you are touching God, literally. When you eat them and drink them, you are eating and drinking God, literally.

Ever seen a monstrance? This is a big golden thing that looks like a sun on a stand. It has a clear round window in the middle of it. Into that little round window a little round consecrated communion bread is placed. It is placed on the altar solemnly, with incense and prayers. And when it is on the altar, the church is hushed - no casual conversation - intense prayer - during the "Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament".

Now, Catholics are often wrongly accused of idolatry, because we kneel and pray sometimes before statues of Mary or other saints, or pray before a crucifix with Jesus on the cross. But we're not practicing idolatry then. Those are merely pictures - very artistic pictures in 3D to be sure, but just pictures - to remind us of God and of the stories of the Bible and to help us focus our prayers. We do not pray TO the statue, we think about what the picture represents. That's not idolatry at all.

If somebody wants to accuse us of idolatry, then he should be focusing on what we do when we expose the Blessed Sacrament in a monstrance. That is no symbol, no representation of a symbol of the body of Christ. That IS the Body of Christ, God physically present on the altar. We are not "thinking about God" when we pray before that - we are praying TO that, because that piece of bread is LITERALLY GOD. The consecrated Catholic communion wafer IS GOD ALMIGHTY, FULLY PRESENT, RIGHT THERE IN YOUR HAND.

It's not a "remembrance" of God. It IS God. The bread BECOMES the body and blood of Christ - we are literally eating God Almighty, and we are worshipping - not venerating - WORSHIPPING that piece of bread, because IT IS GOD. It is not a representation of God. God PHYSICALLY comes out of heaven and is VISIBLE, in CONCRETE MATERIAL FORM, at every single mass, and we TOUCH GOD - literally, not symbolically, and we EAT God and DRINK God, literally. God is within us.

If you don't believe that (and you DON'T) then what we are doing at communion is the UTMOST FORM OF IDOLATRY YOU CAN IMAGINE - to you. THAT is why you should not WANT to take Catholic communion, believing as you do. You are eating what WE BELIEVE to be GOD IN THE FLESH.
We are praying to God when we pray to that wafer, because that wafer IS GOD. Not a "representation of God" like in a statue, LITERALLY GOD.

You also understand, then, why we don't want YOU blundering in there, thinking that you're eating a cracker that is symbolic of something, and literally TOUCHING GOD with such disrespect. It's like touching the Ark of the Covenant or entering the Holy of Holies in an unclean state.

If you're not offended and horrified by realizing that we Catholics literally believe that the consecrated communion wafer IS GOD, and we WORSHIP IT AS GOD, then you have not yet FULLY realized how different, strange and alarming we are, relative to you.

To you, we are idolators of a sort not seen since Old Testament days. We worship a piece of bread and a cup of wine AS GOD. Because they ARE God, and we know it. The hands that made the universe and stretched out on the Cross are right there, visible, in our hand when we eat that bread.

That's no symbolism: a consecrated communion wafer is not "venerated" like Mary, it is WORSHIPPED, because it IS Jesus - right there, in the flesh, in your hand, in your mouth.

Do you, with your Protestant mind, want to be anywhere NEAR such "idolatry"? No! You SHOULD BE HORRIFIED by this realization, once you see it. Likewise should we, who have God literally right there for the eating, let you, who is blind and does not see or understand, blunder up and bring God and judgment into your very body? No! That would be very wrong of us to do.

You don't really understand us at all.

Well, that Monstrance is a man made piece of metal and there is no place in scripture where God comes, literally, to be in the presence of His children, into a man made emblem, structure or "monstrance", other than the ark of the covenant. And, if you touched that, you died.....He certainly is not coming into a small wafer and wine to be drank. Not only that but God gave detailed instructions on how to build the ark and there was only ONE.

Sorry, I will never believe that these "emblems" are possessed by or become the physical God.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Was that not the problem with the RC church that Martin Luther brought to light? The fact that the leaders of the Church were way off base and refused to let the parishioners have copies of the scriptures to keep up themselves?

Meanwhile (back at the ranch), the Orthodox Church goes off and invents whole written languages so that people can have scriptures.

You're kind of looking at catholic with one eye open.

Forgive me....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No responses to post #698 and one to #699.

Forgive me...

 

[JacksBratt]

Hmmmm. Yeah, in my experience that's so...if you're talking about Italians (about not treating Mama right) and Irish Catholics (about everything, for instance breathing).

French Catholics, on the other hand, have no discernible guilt about much of anything. French Protestants probably would, if there were any. Guilt doesn't grow well in French soil.

What about Mexican Catholics..... don't leave them out.....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I had to go look up "Monstrance".

Forgive me...

 

[FenderTL5]

I had to go look up "Monstrance".
Forgive me...

(shhhhhhhh, don't say anything - but so did I)

 

[Vicomte13]

Well, that Monstrance is a man made piece of metal and there is no place in scripture where God comes, literally, to be in the presence of His children, into a man made emblem, structure or "monstrance", other than the ark of the covenant. And, if you touched that, you died.....He certainly is not coming into a small wafer and wine to be drank. Not only that but God gave detailed instructions on how to build the ark and there was only ONE.

Sorry, I will never believe that these "emblems" are possessed by or become the physical God.

And this is why you're not a Catholic. You believe what you believe. We believe what we believe. The Yusufzahies believe what they believe. Neither you nor we argue with them. Must we, then, argue with each other.

What is the point in arguing about these things? You don't like what we believe. We don't like what you believe. Ok. So let's live in peace each agreeing that the other believes wrong things. Is it necessary to fight about it?

 

[Vicomte13]

I had to go look up "Monstrance".

Forgive me...

It sounds like "monster". Big bad Catholic idol gon' git yo' mama!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I had to go look up Yusufzahies.

Forgive me...

 

[Vicomte13]

What about Mexican Catholics..... don't leave them out.....

Mexican Catholics are very loyal and avid practitioners of the commandment "Be fruitful and multiply"!
Which is ultimately advantageous to the rise of Catholic political power in the USA.

 

[kepha31]

Well, that Monstrance is a man made piece of metal and there is no place in scripture where God comes, literally, to be in the presence of His children, into a man made emblem, structure or "monstrance", other than the ark of the covenant. And, if you touched that, you died.....He certainly is not coming into a small wafer and wine to be drank. Not only that but God gave detailed instructions on how to build the ark and there was only ONE.
Sorry, I will never believe that these "emblems" are possessed by or become the physical God.

3 things you fail to understand.
1) the rays of the monstrance symbolize the light that shone from Christ at the Transfiguration. Matt 17:1-9 ; Mark 9:2-10 Luke 9:28-36 and in 2 Peter 1:16-21.
2) it contains the Substantial Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. See John 6.
3) The Ark of the Covenant contained mana, foreshadowing the Eucharist, much like the womb of Mary carried the Bread of Life. That's why she is the Ark of the New Covenant.
The Ark of the Covenant also contained the rod of Aaron, foreshadowing Jesus as High Priest, and the Ten Commandments, the word of God in stone, foreshadowing the Word of God made flesh, in Mary's womb, the Ark of the New Covenant. None of these are emblems. The ark of the Covenant was not a physical God, but pointed to Him. They were physical realities, which developed into human realities, which developed into heavenly realities. You accept the veneration the Jews had for the Ark, but that is where you stop dead.

 

[Albion]

??

 

[JacksBratt]

You're focused on the days and nights and not the number 3. Trinitarian is all over the place.

Christ died on Friday at the same time the lambs were being slaughtered in the Temple.
That's the first day by Hebrew reckoning.
Saturday in the grave as foreshadowed by the Sabbath.
That's a second day by Hebrew reckoning.
Rose from the grave after sundown Saturday night and before dawn Sunday.
That is a third day by Hebrew reckoning.

Let's not chase this rabbit though.

Forgive me...

I am going to post once more on the burial dates and times of Christ.... then I will leave this alone.

From: Jesus Wasn't Crucified on Friday or Resurrected on Sunday: How long was Jesus in the tomb?

Most people have no idea that the Bible talks about two kinds of Sabbath days—the normal weekly Sabbath day that falls on the seventh day of the week (not to be confused with Sunday, which is the first day of the week), and seven annual Sabbath days, listed in Leviticus 23 and mentioned in various passages throughout the Bible, that could fall on any day of the week.

Most people fail to note that John explicitly tells us that the Sabbath that began at sundown immediately after Jesus was entombed was one of these annual Sabbath days. Notice in John 19:31 his explanation that “that Sabbath was a high day” —” high day” being a term used to differentiate the seven annual Sabbaths from the regular weekly Sabbath days.

I was once confused on the timing of this event. Since I have been educated, I now have knowledge of the truth.

Read the article. It is very straight forward and very true. Then you can be educated and not ignorant of the fact that Christ was extremely truthful when He stated:


Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.” 39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

No matter what slide rule, computer, calculator, star chart or barometer you use......... Crucified Friday raised Sunday doesn't fly.

 

[Albion]

You can believe whatever the church of your choice tells you to believe, but the answer to your theory has been explained on these forums more than once. Perhaps the easiest thing for you to do would be to look up some of those threads.