• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured Catholic vs. Protestant – why is there so much animosity?"

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Major1, Dec 16, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    +3,562
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Divorced
    Major1 loves God. That is awesome.

    God bless you Major1
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,588
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I just questioned how you would know so much on the mind of your neighbor. Now you may have invited him to tea and then drew out his Kantian philosophy.

    Now what makes you think Reformed believe faith is but a rational choice?
     
  3. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

    +1,285
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Beg to differ
    Matthew 4:4
    But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +13,336
    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    I said just the opposite actually.

    I'm saying as a Lutheran, my understanding of faith and how it happens is very similar to the Reformed understanding.

    I know how decisional theology works. I've been exposed to enough of it over the years, it's not hard to be familiar with it.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,588
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    St Irenaeus said thus:

    We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
    CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)
     
  6. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,986
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Even the Scriptural terminology, "born again" cannot be comprehended by those who are ignorant and unstable due to their being led by demons to whom they give their minds over to on account of their being slaves of sinful passions. That which is flesh is flesh, and they who are not passionless are still of the flesh to varying degrees. There are of course many who think that they are born again and are therefor led in there understandings by the Holy Spirit, but have merely succumbed to demonic deception, allowed by them because of the hidden sin that is in their hearts. Holy Tradition is comprised of unseen warfare that is continuously waged against the passions and the demons who make use of the passions to enslave us. We enter into this war, and we receive more and more of the grace of the Holy Spirit as we endure in this struggle until the end. This is the Life that enables us to know properly about the things in Scripture.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,588
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Don't you think the highest authority is where God speaks?

    Where else can we go to in order to get the words spoken by God?
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,588
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Merry Christmas!
     
  9. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    +3,562
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Divorced
    From Sacred Scripture entwined with Sacred Tradition.

    In the days before 'the Bible' people would rely on Sacred Tradition from Apostolic succession. Word. Handed down.

    Sola Scripture did not exist then.
     
  10. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    +3,562
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Divorced
    Happy Birthday Jesus
     
  11. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,986
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    The plan of our salvation includes, of course, the coming of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is always at work in the Church. Scripture testifies to both the coming of the Holy Spirit and of the Church being the "pillar and foundation of truth". Salvation is not by the "Word" alone, but it is the work of the Trinity: Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. Without the grace of the Holy Spirit the Word cannot be heard correctly by any man.
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,588
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
    CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)
     
  13. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    +3,562
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Divorced
    Scripture, which by today, has been re-written many times from the original!

    Word of God was taught via preaching. Not from books. It was from Tradition. From Apostolic Succession. It was never via Sola Scripture.
     
  14. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,986
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Salvation is the work of the Holy Trinity: Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit the Word cannot be properly comprehended by any man. The Word Himself says "If I do not go away, the Spirit cannot come" (John 16:7). Our salvation depends on the Spirit of God as much as on the Word of God. That is why we say that it is essential that we have Both.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,588
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    1 Corinthians 15:10

    Good reference! God Bless you in your walk with Christ Jesus. Abide Boldly my friend!

    Merry Christmas.
     
  16. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    +3,562
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Divorced
    This is why I believe that the Holy Spirit is very much alive today, in the church, as much as it was 2,000 years ago. God's word. God's revelations. God's truths did not stop with the Bible! No! God continues to teach, via the Holy Spirit, as much today as He did in the times of the Apostles.

    Truth, lives on even when the back cover of the Bible is closed!
     
  17. Linktogunner

    Linktogunner New Member

    25
    +17
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Maybe I should have added that the collective agreement of these revealed things let's you know that they are true. Lets say for instance you have your average unchurched person. Give them a bible paired with an honest desire to be made wise for salvation and I beleive the core fundamentals that they reach will line up with the core fundamentals of the rest of the church. I'm not saying that you only need the bible and not the rest of the Body.. however I do beleive that an honest heart drawn in by God and the word is all you need to get the journey started.
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,588
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Yes Irenaeus made it clear the Word of God was proclaimed in public. He also said the apostles wrote it down and handed it down.

    The context of what I quoted from Against Heresies is interesting. St Irenaeus was appealing to Holy Scriptures due to the disciples of Valentinus claiming their tradition was pure and apostolic. Hidden traditions no one else but the disciples of Valentinus knew. To refute this Irenaeus appeals to Holy Scriptures, specifically the NT writings to demonstrate there were no hidden secrets in the true tradition as the apostles taught in public and actually wrote down the things he was defending.

    What we have throughout Against Heresies is the appeal of Irenaeus to the Scriptures as the authority to refute heretics.

    Now I see Sola Scriptura used a lot and 9 times out of 10 the term is used incorrectly or ill defined.

    Brass tacks is Holy Scriptures is the rule of faith to test truth claims. Tradition is fine and the Holy Scriptures do not denounce tradition other than those created by man (like the Pharisees did). However, any tradition must pass the scrutiny of Holy Scriptures as they are the Holy Spirit inspired written Word of God.
     
  19. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

    +656
    United States
    Catholic
    Engaged
    The ECF are of no help to you. If you want to stay Protestant, I suggest that you do not keep reading the very same document that you cited.

    CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.2 (St. Irenaeus)

    The heretics follow neither Scripture nor tradition.

    1. When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world. 1 Corinthians 2:6 And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.

    2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

    3. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.

    CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

    A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.

    1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.

    2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].

    3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolic tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.

    4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time — a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles — that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within. And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan. Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10 There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

    CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.4 (St. Irenaeus)

    The truth is to be found nowhere else but in the Catholic Church, the sole depository of apostolic doctrine. Heresies are of recent formation, and cannot trace their origin up to the apostles.

    1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. Revelation 22:17 For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

    2. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents, have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.

    3. For, prior to Valentinus, those who follow Valentinus had no existence; nor did those from Marcion exist before Marcion; nor, in short, had any of those malignant-minded people, whom I have above enumerated, any being previous to the initiators and inventors of their perversity. For Valentinus came to Rome in the time of Hyginus, flourished under Pius, and remained until Anicetus. Cerdon, too, Marcion's predecessor, himself arrived in the time of Hyginus, who was the ninth bishop. Coming frequently into the Church, and making public confession, he thus remained, one time teaching in secret, and then again making public confession; but at last, having been denounced for corrupt teaching, he was excommunicated from the assembly of the brethren. Marcion, then, succeeding him, flourished under Anicetus, who held the tenth place of the episcopate. But the rest, who are called Gnostics, take rise from Menander, Simon's disciple, as I have shown; and each one of them appeared to be both the father and the high priest of that doctrine into which he has been initiated. But all these (the Marcosians) broke out into their apostasy much later, even during the intermediate period of the Church.

    CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, IV.26 (St. Irenaeus)

    The treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ; the true exposition of the Scriptures is to be found in the Church alone.

    1. If any one, therefore, reads the Scriptures with attention, he will find in them an account of Christ, and a foreshadowing of the new calling (vocationis). For Christ is the treasure which was hid in the field, Matthew 13:44 that is, in this world (for the field is the world Matthew 13:38); but the treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ, since He was pointed out by means of types and parables. Hence His human nature could not be understood, prior to the consummation of those things which had been predicted, that is, the advent of Christ. And therefore it was said to Daniel the prophet: Shut up the words, and seal the book even to the time of consummation, until many learn, and knowledge be completed. For at that time, when the dispersion shall be accomplished, they shall know all these things. Daniel 12:4, 7 But Jeremiah also says, In the last days they shall understand these things. Jeremiah 23:20 For every prophecy, before its fulfilment, is to men [full of] enigmas and ambiguities. But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition. And for this reason, indeed, when at this present time the law is read to the Jews, it is like a fable; for they do not possess the explanation of all things pertaining to the advent of the Son of God, which took place in human nature; but when it is read by the Christians, it is a treasure, hid indeed in a field, but brought to light by the cross of Christ, and explained, both enriching the understanding of men, and showing forth the wisdom of God and declaring His dispensations with regard to man, and forming the kingdom of Christ beforehand, and preaching by anticipation the inheritance of the holy Jerusalem, and proclaiming beforehand that the man who loves God shall arrive at such excellency as even to see God, and hear His word, and from the hearing of His discourse be glorified to such an extent, that others cannot behold the glory of his countenance, as was said by Daniel: Those who do understand, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and many of the righteous as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:3 Thus, then, I have shown it to be, if any one read the Scriptures. For thus it was that the Lord discoursed with the disciples after His resurrection from the dead, proving to them from the Scriptures themselves that Christ must suffer, and enter into His glory, and that remission of sins should be preached in His name throughout all the world. Luke 24:26, 47 And the disciple will be perfected, and [rendered] like the householder, who brings forth from his treasure things new and old. Matthew 13:52

    2. Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church — those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth. And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the altar of God — namely, strange doctrines— shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud. Leviticus 10:1-2 But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [shall] remain among those in hell (apud inferos), being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and Abiron. Numbers 16:33 But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did. 1 Kings 14:10

    3. Those, however, who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts, and, do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt towards others, and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat, and work evil deeds in secret, saying, No man sees us, shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance (secundum gloriam), nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words, to be found in Daniel the prophet: O you seed of Canaan, and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you, and lust perverted your heart. You that are waxen old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed aforetime have come to light; for you have pronounced false judgments, and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent, and to let the guilty go free, albeit the Lord says, The innocent and the righteous shall you not slay. Of whom also did the Lord say: But if the evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delays his coming, and shall begin to smite the man-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day that he looks not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

    4. From all such persons, therefore, it behooves us to keep aloof, but to adhere to those who, as I have already observed, do hold the doctrine of the apostles, and who, together with the order of priesthood (presbyterii ordine), display sound speech and blameless conduct for the confirmation and correction of others. In this way, Moses, to whom such a leadership was entrusted, relying on a good conscience, cleared himself before God, saying, I have not in covetousness taken anything belonging to one of these men, nor have I done evil to one of them. Numbers 16:15 In this way, too, Samuel, who judged the people so many years, and bore rule over Israel without any pride, in the end cleared himself, saying, I have walked before you from my childhood even unto this day: answer me in the sight of God, and before His anointed (Christi ejus); whose ox or whose ass of yours have I taken, or over whom have I tyrannized, or whom have I oppressed? Or if I have received from the hand of any a bribe or [so much as] a shoe, speak out against me, and I will restore it to you. 1 Samuel 12:3 And when the people had said to him, You have not tyrannized, neither have you oppressed us, neither have you taken ought of any man's hand, he called the Lord to witness, saying, The Lord is witness, and His Anointed is witness this day, that you have not found ought in my hand. And they said to him, He is witness. In this strain also the Apostle Paul, inasmuch as he had a good conscience, said to the Corinthians: For we are not as many, who corrupt the Word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ; 2 Corinthians 2:17 We have injured no man, corrupted no man, circumvented no man. 2 Corinthians 7:2

    5. Such presbyters does the Church nourish, of whom also the prophet says: I will give your rulers in peace, and your bishops in righteousness. Isaiah 60:17 Of whom also did the Lord declare, Who then shall be a faithful steward (actor), good and wise, whom the Lord sets over His household, to give them their meat in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He comes, shall find so doing. Matthew 24:45-46 Paul then, teaching us where one may find such, says, God has placed in the Church, first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers. 1 Corinthians 12:28 Where, therefore, the gifts of the Lord have been placed, there it behooves us to learn the truth, [namely,] from those who possess that succession of the Church which is from the apostles, and among whom exists that which is sound and blameless in conduct, as well as that which is unadulterated and incorrupt in speech. For these also preserve this faith of ours in one God who created all things; and they increase that love [which we have] for the Son of God, who accomplished such marvellous dispensations for our sake: and they expound the Scriptures to us without danger, neither blaspheming God, nor dishonouring the patriarchs, nor despising the prophets.​
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  20. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +2,053
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    That is so much parroted propaganda, which partly depends upon a definition of "Protestant" that is so ill-defined and broad as to be meaningless, as well as a mere fantasy about Catholic unity. as well as an absurd comparison btwn the pope and being a Protestant,in addition to a fallacy regarding stewardship and veracity.
    Since we claim no emperor to cloth, in contrast to cults (though RC use of "Protestant" seems to mean all that is not Catholic), while your Roman emperor is what is lacking clothes, and is simply not that of Petrine leadership in the NT church, among many other Catholic distinctives which are missing. Even Catholic researchers provided evidence against the NT church looking to Peter as the first of a line of (conditionally) infallible popes reigning from Rome. But like in the fairy tale called "The Emperor's New Clothes," Catholics - who can extrapolate an octopus from an ant - sees and call things that are not as if they are.
    To the contrary, surveys attest that those who hold most strongly to the Scripture as being the wholly inspired and accurate word of God, and thus to its corresponding authority, have been the most unified in basic beliefs, in contrast to those whom Rome considers members in life and in death.

    Which is why evangelicals - which movement arose due to unity and commitment to core Truths - have been ideological enemy #1 for both liberals and Catholics. One one hand they accuse of us of being a bunch of disunified believers, and then they attack us as a unified whole due to unity is core beliefs, despite disagreements on other issues, which is what we see in Catholicism as well. That of professed unity - which is largely a paper one - in a limited number of basic beliefs, while allowing for a form of dissent on others, and implicitly allowing for vast disagreements in reality.

    For the fact is that Rome is a amalgam of variegated beliefs, for while evangelicals can disagree about what their supreme authoritative source of Truth means, so can Catholics regarding what their supreme authoritative source of Truth means, virtually all of whom Rome manifestly considers members in life and in death, whether they be Ted Kennedy-type RCS or Mother Theresa-types.

    Which is despite of or even because of her magisterium.

    As one poster wryly stated,

    The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. ” - Nathan, Against The Grain
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...