Catholic view of British history

[Malleeboy]

Even though I am 8th gen Australian, I still have a very British view of history. I know this may seem like an odd question, but in many way British history is entrenched in an anti Catholic world view. The mythical view of British history as a fight against the big powerful Catholics nations, which where the force of evil coming to take away liberty and freedom. Of course I know that to be simplistic but the epic British stories all lean that way...
Spanish armada come to invade and being destroyed by the breath of God.
Pope basically putting a death warrant on Elizabeth I, and her survival of the plots.
Bloody Mary torturing people, Elizabeth not wanting windows into people souls
Gunpowder plot
William I with papal blessing and backing, ending the elected British monarchy and harrowing the north.
William and Mary in the glorious revolution replacing despotic James II
Even The Tale of Two Cities, mirrors Protestant Britain verse Catholic France.

To be Catholic to me would be turn so much of history upside down?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Even though I am 8th gen Australian, I still have a very British view of history. I know this may seem like an odd question, but in many way British history is entrenched in an anti Catholic world view. The mythical view of British history as a fight against the big powerful Catholics nations, which where the force of evil coming to take away liberty and freedom. Of course I know that to be simplistic but the epic British stories all lean that way...
Spanish armada come to invade and being destroyed by the breath of God.
Pope basically putting a death warrant on Elizabeth I, and her survival of the plots.
Bloody Mary torturing people, Elizabeth not wanting windows into people souls
Gunpowder plot
William I with papal blessing and backing, ending the elected British monarchy and harrowing the north.
William and Mary in the glorious revolution replacing despotic James II
Even The Tale of Two Cities, mirrors Protestant Britain verse Catholic France.

To be Catholic to me would be turn so much of history upside down?

Was there a question there or did you just wanna rifle off some Anglo anti-Catholicism?

 

[Malleeboy]

I was christened Catholic, my Dad's family was Catholic (multi generational Australian with Irish ancestry). I have no personal animus against Catholics in general. I enjoy reading Chesterton etc.

Maybe I asked my question poorly, but I'm not sure how to phrase it. How do British Catholics feel about abot the British mythos which is so overwhelming pro Protestats. (eg Do they feel that Mary I was good cause she wanted to return England to Rome?)

 

[chevyontheriver]

I was christened Catholic, my Dad's family was Catholic (multi generational Australian with Irish ancestry). I have no personal animus against Catholics in general. I enjoy reading Chesterton etc.

Maybe I asked my question poorly, but I'm not sure how to phrase it. How do British Catholics feel about about the British mythos which is so overwhelming pro Protestants. (eg Do they feel that Mary I was good cause she wanted to return England to Rome?)

Not being British I won't speak for them. But on any given Sunday there are more Catholics in church in Britain than there are Anglicans and other Protestants combined. So, while history is written by the victors, and the Protestants were the victors in Britain, demography is destiny. Demographically the question is whether Britain will be Catholic or Muslim. And future histories will be written by the victor in that race.

I have read Eamon Duffy's books on pre-Reformation England and he makes the point that the Reformation in England was not necessary. It was pushed upon Catholics for a divorce, and then pushed farther by people who benefited financially from the dissolution of the monasteries. Ever wonder how Downton Abbey (Yes, I know it is fictional) had the word 'abbey' attached to it? Those were the kind of folks who wrote the British histories. New histories will either be Catholic or Muslim. Anyway, check out Eamon Duffy.

The American situation is stranger. Being British colonies they had the same anti-Catholic mythos. But breaking away from a British Protestant monarch and head of the Anglican communion, the American colonists sought out the help of Catholic France. Throwing off the control of the Church by the monarch, and insisting that no monarch control the Church, it set up a whole different mythos. Not necessarily better, for it was more chaotic and divisive. But in seeking the help of Catholic France, George Washington forbade the Guy Fawkes celebrations that used to be as big in the colonies as they are in England. The USA became Catholic tolerant in a way that Britain has only recently gingerly been able to become.

Demographically the USA will either become Catholic or totally secular. Not sure which will win out. But Protestantism, once the powerhouse in the USA, is in massive decline. Catholicism is sort of hanging on, even with the troubles we face. Right now I would bet on secularism winning, but I have not given up on the possibility of a new Catholic moment in USA and Canada history. Demography is destiny and the secularists are failing to reproduce. We'll see.

Reading Chesterton can be dangerous. He is still highly relevant for today. As is his buddy Hilaire Belloc. In fact the two of them are sometimes referred to as ChesterBelloc. Anyhow, dangerous because you might end up becoming Catholic. Despite British histories which were designed for almost 500 years to make Catholics look terrible.

Oh, and if your interests tend towards the Oxford movement within Anglicanism, check out John Henry Newman. He got himself into Church history in a big way and swam the Tiber. Others are following him. It's not totally crazy to consider doing so too.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Even though I am 8th gen Australian, I still have a very British view of history. I know this may seem like an odd question, but in many way British history is entrenched in an anti Catholic world view. The mythical view of British history as a fight against the big powerful Catholics nations, which where the force of evil coming to take away liberty and freedom. Of course I know that to be simplistic but the epic British stories all lean that way...
Spanish armada come to invade and being destroyed by the breath of God.
Pope basically putting a death warrant on Elizabeth I, and her survival of the plots.
Bloody Mary torturing people, Elizabeth not wanting windows into people souls
Gunpowder plot
William I with papal blessing and backing, ending the elected British monarchy and harrowing the north.
William and Mary in the glorious revolution replacing despotic James II
Even The Tale of Two Cities, mirrors Protestant Britain verse Catholic France.

To be Catholic to me would be turn so much of history upside down?

Yeah ok.

HIS own writing.


3. We, seeing impieties and crimes multiplied one upon another the persecution of the faithful and afflictions of religion daily growing more severe under the guidance and by the activity of the said Elizabeth—and recognising that her mind is so fixed and set that she has not only despised the pious prayers and admonitions with which Catholic princes have tried to cure and convert her but has not even permitted the nuncios sent to her in this matter by this See to cross into England, are compelled by necessity to take up against her the weapons of justice, though we cannot forbear to regret that we should be forced to turn upon one whose ancestors have so well deserved of the Christian community. Therefore, resting upon the authority of Him whose pleasure it was to place us (though unequal to such a burden) upon this supreme justice-seat, we do out of the fullness of our apostolic power declare the foresaid Elizabeth to be a heretic and favourer of heretics, and her adherents in the matters aforesaid to have incurred the sentence of excommunication and to be cut off from the unity of the body of Christ.

You seek truth or rumors?

Writings of the past cannot be revised or changed to suit the rumor mills.

Excommunicated, yes.
NOT a death threat.

4. And moreover (we declare) her to be deprived of her pretended title to the aforesaid crown and of all lordship, dignity and privilege whatsoever.

5. And also (declare) the nobles, subjects and people of the said realm and all others who have in any way sworn oaths to her, to be forever absolved from such an oath and from any duty arising from lordship, fealty and obedience; and we do, by authority of these presents, so absolve them and so deprive the same Elizabeth of her pretended title to the crown and all other the abovesaid matters. We charge and command all and singular the nobles, subjects peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her orders, mandates and laws. Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of excommunication.

Pope Pius V's Bull Against Elizabeth I | Encyclopedia.com




Revisionism, the easiest way to keep rumors going.

 

[Bob Crowley]

On a personal level, it boils down to what a person thinks should be the ultimate authority. In my case I think it's Christ (or actually the Trinitarian God) who appointed St. Peter and his apostolic descendants as CEO's for lack of a better term. Although being ex-Protestant, I don't have much sympathy for ultramontanism.

As a (Catholic, ex-Protestant) Australian, I'm also well aware of the anti-Catholicism of the Australian establishment for much of it's history, which was inherited from the British establishment which colonised Australia.

I still have a vague memory of job advertisements when I was young which included "... Catholics and Jews need not apply". But that sort of nonsense went out the window, and it would be illegal to post such advertisements today.

For a number of reasons the heat has gone out of the Anglican-Catholic divide, in Australia anyway. Amongst them was the fact that Australia lost a lot of young men in WWI and they weren't always impressed with the British leadership. In World War II, all faiths fought together and against each other, with the allies being Anglican Britain, Protestant USA, Atheist (Orthodox) Russia and Confucian China in the main, with Catholic / Lutheran Germany, Catholic Italy and Buddhist (Shinto) Japan on the other side.

Having stuck their neck out on behalf of the authorities and killing in their name, the average Australian serviceman or woman tended to be unimpressed with the religious differences.

Churches mark 10th anniversary of historic ecumenical covenant in south-east Queensland - The Catholic Leader

The British Monarchy might still be holding out with it's absurd rules regarding Catholic inclusiveness in royal circles, marriages etc. but for most Australians, Catholic or Protestant, our attitude would be "who gives a stuff?". I think we'll become a Republic eventually, and then that attitude will be regarded as belonging to the age of the dinosaurs.

I don't think the age of Colonial Anglicanism holds much sway in modern Australian religious life.

The Catholic Church is now the biggest single denomination in Australia, despite the earlier attempts by Anglican authorities to ban or suppress it.

The way I see things going, the former Anglican-Catholic divide in Australia will be the least of our worries.