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Catholic symbols in State schools to be phased out

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by Caliban, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. Caliban

    Caliban Well-Known Member

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  2. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not from Ireland but having Irish roots, I am interested; who is doing this; is it the Church; is it the Catholic people or is it UNESCO, or other outside influences? What are Catholic symbols; are they synonymous with Masonic or Illuminati symbols?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  3. Caliban

    Caliban Well-Known Member

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    The article states that the decision originated with the State’s Education and Training Boards (ETBs).
     
  4. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So it could be a decision by one man, ten men or 666 men, representing the ideologies of a minority group like the UN.
     
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  5. Caliban

    Caliban Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how it works in Ireland. In California's CTC, such a decision would require intense scrutiny and board approval--likely even legislative action. I would imagine it is the same in Ireland.
     
  6. Occams Barber

    Occams Barber Newbie Supporter

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    This is just a continuation of a process where the influence of the Catholic Church is being progressively diluted - particularly in state institutions.

    The cause goes back to a number of investigations where the sins of the Catholic Church in Ireland were uncovered in graphic detail. This includes, but goes well beyond, child sexual abuse by priests to serious mistreatment of unwed mothers in catholic run institutions along with high infant death rates, child punishment verging on torture, encouragement of toxic bullying and a particularly disgusting institution for unwed mothers where deceased infants were disposed of, by nuns, in a septic tank.

    The consequences for the Catholic Church in Ireland have been significant. This change is part of an ongoing process where Church is being forcibly separated from the State.

    I wrote this for a thread back in 2019:

    If you look at what has happened in Ireland in particular you can see where loss of moral authority has negatively impacted on the (in this case) Catholic Church. Attendance at mass has dropped significantly, approval of religion has also dropped. A once staunchly Catholic nation now allows abortion, requires priests to report abuse discovered in confession, allows same sex marriage based on a public vote and is currently led by an openly gay man. Priests no longer command the respect they once did.
    The Irish have learned that allowing the Church to manage many of it's governmental institutions was a tragic mistake.

    OB
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  7. Caliban

    Caliban Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for filling in many of the blanks I had. Very informative. My great grand parents left Ireland to get away from the cultural grip of religion--I wonder how many also left for similar reasons?
     
  8. Occams Barber

    Occams Barber Newbie Supporter

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    The Irish diaspora is usually attributed to poverty and/or the various potato famines brought on by potato blight.


    You might be interested in this little Wikipedia summary of the 'Ryan' report on industrial schools completed in 2009 following nine years of investigation. This is only one of a number of reports related to institutions run by the Church.

    The commission's remit was to investigate all forms of child abuse in Irish institutions for children; the majority of allegations it investigated related to the system of sixty residential "Reformatory and Industrial Schools" operated by Catholic Church orders, funded and supervised by the Irish Department of Education.[1]

    The commission's report said testimony had demonstrated beyond a doubt that the entire system treated children more like prison inmates and slaves than people with legal rights and human potential, that some religious officials encouraged ritual beatings and consistently shielded their orders amid a "culture of self-serving secrecy", and that government inspectors failed to stop the abuses.[2]

    Among the more extreme allegations of abuse were beatings and rapes, subjection to naked beatings in public, being forced into oral sex, and subjection to beatings after failed rape attempts by brothers.[3] The abuse has been described by some as Ireland's Holocaust.[4][5] The abuse was said to be "endemic" in the institutions that dealt with boys.[6] The UK based Guardian newspaper, described the abuse as "the stuff of nightmares", citing the adjectives used in the report as being particularly chilling: "systemic, pervasive, chronic, excessive, arbitrary, endemic".[7]

    The Report's conclusions section (Chapter 6) supports the overall tenor of the accusations without exception.[8] But, the commission's recommendations were restricted in scope by two rules imposed by the Irish government, and therefore do not include calls for the prosecution or sanction of any of the parties involved.[9]

    Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse - Wikipedia

    OB​
     
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  9. Caliban

    Caliban Well-Known Member

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    That is astoundingly horrible. How people continue supporting that institution is unnerving.
     
  10. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am not a Catholic supporter; my great grand parents came from Ireland but not to escape the Church, they remained very Catholicy.

    Occams Barber gives the exceptions not the rule. The Catholic Church is the greatest religion that has ever existed but fake when judged against the Bible. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What God gave Israel was a system of Government; Rome, including the Papacy, consists of alternate forms of Government. A Protestant view of Catholicism can be found here under the heading RCC Exposed,

    presents of God ministry

    I thought the thread was to do with the Catholic role in education and their removal from it. When the Catholic Church is removed it is replaced by something and it could be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. There is an old German saying, “If you want to teach the people something you teach the children first.” The Green movement originates from Germany, as Plan B, Hitler was Plan A; even Hitlers enemies are jumping on board Plan B; but I see all this as prophesy being fulfilled.
     
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  11. Occams Barber

    Occams Barber Newbie Supporter

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    I have no idea of the point you are trying to make but since you've mentioned me I feel obliged to respond .

    In Post #6, I responded to @Caliban's query about the culture and politics surrounding the removal of Catholic symbolism from some Irish schools by explaining a little of the historical context for changed attitudes to Catholicism in Ireland.

    In post #8 I added little more background as it related specifically to schools.

    If you consider my comments cover 'the exceptions not the rule' you may be interested in looking over the following list of nine reports detailing institutional abuse in Irish schools, reformatories, mother-and-baby homes, and dioceses:
    • The Report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse (The Ryan Report)
    • The Report by Commission of Investigation into Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin (The Murphy Report)
    • The Madonna House Report
    • The Reformatory and Industrial Schools Systems Report
    • The Report by the Commission of Investigation into Catholic Diocese of Cloyne
    • The Ferns Report
    • In Plain Sight (Amnesty International)
    • Commission of Investigation into (18) Mother and Baby Homes (includes Tuam Babies mass grave)
    • The Magdalene Laundries Report (includes mass grave)
    OB
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  12. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This thread turned out to be very informative, and to that information...wow, very sad.
     
  13. Occams Barber

    Occams Barber Newbie Supporter

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    I've read parts of some of the reports and seen summaries of others. What I've written here barely scratches the surface. It's difficult to read without choking up or extreme anger at what these so-called Christians have done.

    To make it worse some of the orders involved continue to avoid responsibility by denying wrongdoing or refusing to participate in compensation schemes designed to help surviving victims. While the abuses were generally systemic and carried out by religious operatives, the Irish government is not without guilt in turning a blind eye.

    OB
     
  14. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sickening, and the denial/cover up makes it that much harder to put an end to it.
     
  15. Triumvirate

    Triumvirate Well-Known Member

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    Given that Ireland is shrugging off the shackles of the Catholic church, if the recent referenda are anything to go by, this will not be much of a big deal. Long overdue, really.
     
  16. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If I remember correctly the op is opposing secular government taking charge of Catholic/ private Education; instead of having the Church raise the kids, the State raises them instead (communism).

    While I do not know the specifics of the Irish situation, I have cousins who sent there daughters to Catholic schools because the preferred the moral code taught in Catholic Schools as opposed to the moral code taught in Public Schools. This is of course a condemnation of Protenant schools.

    WE are not talking about right and wrong, but about wrong and wronger. As I understand the Irish situation is that the Reformation never arrived in Ireland, where the Catholic Church had no competition to keep it honest.

    I find it amusing that Atheists hate the Catholic Church.
     
  17. Occams Barber

    Occams Barber Newbie Supporter

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    I suggest you go back and read the OP and the linked article again. The issue has nothing to do with secular government taking over Catholic education. It's about State secondary schools minimising Catholic specific practices. This is a quote:

    State secondary schools are to phase out a range of Catholic influences such as mandatory graduation masses, the display of Catholic symbols only and visits from diocesan inspectors.
    Catholic schools will continue with normal Catholic practices:

    It is understood that the rules will not necessarily apply to a separate category of 70 ETB schools that have legally binding agreements with the Catholic Church that guarantee certain provisions for Catholic children.

    The Catholic Church in Ireland has much to answer for. As an atheist I don't harbour any hatred for the Church - just anger at the damage it has done to Irish society and the Irish people. If you make the effort to read a little about what has happened in Ireland I can assure you that your amusement will be quickly diminished.

    OB
     
  18. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    You rightly acknowledge the limited extent to which you have studied these disturbing matters. Having explored them even less I recognise the following comments might reasonably be rejected as mere anecdote, but a sense of fairness compels me to note the following.

    Similar issues certainly existed within the UK, only some related to the Catholic Church. Comparable problems are reported from many countries. The problem is not the Catholic Church. The problem is the corrupibility of humans whether they are part of religious bodies, businesses, institutions or government. We need to ensure we hold those responsible for such practices to account regardless of what organisation they are part of.
     
  19. Occams Barber

    Occams Barber Newbie Supporter

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    The point you've raised is generally valid although, in the case of Ireland, the sheer volume and nature of the offences goes well beyond anything I've read about in other countries. I agree that the problem is not limited to Catholic institutions. In my own country a Royal Commission on child sexual abuse, while finding the bulk of the problem lay within Catholic institutions, also listed problems in places run by other religions and secular organisations.

    One difference for the Catholic Church, particularly in Ireland, is opportunity. If we assume equal potential 'corruptibility', then the organisation with the most offenders is likely to be the one most involved in running institutions where things like child sexual abuse are likely to occur. In Ireland Catholic controlled institutions included schools, reformatories, orphanages, homes for unwed mothers, homes for young women at moral risk. Not only was the Church running the majority of these institutions, it's practices and moral authority went unquestioned by secular authorities. In other countries Catholic schools seem to provide opportunities for abuse.

    While opportunity may be the major factor I don't think we can ignore some of the factors specific to Catholic religious operatives (i.e. priests, brothers, nuns and the hierarchy). There are views that celibacy may be problem. Being unmarried and more or less removed from 'normal' society, has also been suggested as an issue peculiar to Catholic religious. There's also a suggestion that religious life may attract people who are socially/sexually immature. I can't say which, if any, of these factors are at play, but they do raise legitimate questions about whether Catholic religious life itself contributes to the problem.

    OB
     
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  20. Triumvirate

    Triumvirate Well-Known Member

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    That isn't communism.

    Public and protestant schools aren't the same thing in Ireland though?

    Sanctimonious child abusers tend to have that effect.
     
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