Catholic or Orthodox - Charismatic stuff?

[Markie Boy]

Hoping for some input from more than one camp on this, so I am posting here.

I have been in a Catholic Church for a while, but the Charismatic stuff seems to be growing, and it's the only group of really active people in the parish. I was told (I did not go) they had some speaking in tongues and "Resting in the Spirit" or "Slain in the Spirit" at a recent prayer meeting.

I don't even feel like participating in the sacraments here anymore. Catholicism is so divided and mixed up. I came here from a Baptist background, and honestly after seeing the Charismatic stuff - my old Baptist church almost looks more "orthodox" and much more united.

My question - there are some (few) conservative Catholics that don't like all the Charismatic stuff, and I respect them. The fact that the Bishop is allowing this stuff, and the Vatican really, has caused me to pretty much loose what respect I had left for them. Am I being to harsh or closed minded? Would I have a similar issue in Orthodoxy?

 

[Hermit76]

You would not have the same issue in Orthodoxy.

I am a former Pentecostal (and Baptist) pastor and I came across my first Charismatic Catholic priest about 14 years ago. It has exploded since. I also used to pastor in the southwest. The Catholics there were often superstitious as it seemed to be allowed. Catholicism is more fluid with its acceptance of outside influences, etc. This is evident by Vatican II. I have recently sat in on a couple Catholic Masses and I am shocked at the differences. This is not to slam Catholicism, it is just my observation.

That being said... You will not have a Charismatic problem in Orthodoxy, but we are human. There will be other opportunities to share in out mutual frustration over said humanity in its various manifestations. The people of Orthodoxy does not negate the faith. We simply ask for His Mercy

 

[truefiction1]

I don't know much about the revival stuff that's been going on in there. I lead a pretty sheltered Life in the Church. Sorry.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't want to speak as if I'm any kind of expert (I'm not) ... but Orthodoxy has a very unique take on the Holy Spirit. We certainly do not deny that God works today to perform healing, miracles, give knowledge that can't come by natural means, and so on. It seems to have been part of Orthodoxy all along. So we disagree with some cessationists over such things having stopped outright.

However, we do not exactly agree with the Charismatics/Pentecostals either. From my point of view, it is often their expectation that the more apparent outward kinds of "gifts" are expected to operate in every believer. Indeed, some circles will deny a person is even in Christ at all if they do not demonstrate such things. So there is expectation, and even pressure, and humans being what we are subject to various internal and external influences - a lot of "stuff" results.

By contrast, Orthodoxy does not expect or demand such things, either of human persons, or of God. We know they happen, but they come solely by the will and action of God, and for His purposes, and we likewise recognize a great risk of pride attached to them, such that we don't seek them out, nor do we make a big fuss when they happen (or try not to). It also seems to be pretty accepted that God tends to trust the more humble and spiritually advanced ones with such gifts, perhaps because if the risk of dangerous pride. God would not want to tempt a new believer with pride.

Bottom line is - we believe in the power and effective work of the Holy Spirit, but have a far more sane approach than many other kinds of looking at such things. So no, I don't think you'd find that problem in Orthodoxy. If you do find it ... you might need to take a step back and see what kind of path those folks are on. Errors in individuals can happen, but that doesn't mean the Church works that way. Still, my guess is that you could go your whole life in Orthodoxy - or look through many lifetimes - and not see such excesses. Unless you go back to 1st century Corinth, maybe.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hoping for some input from more than one camp on this, so I am posting here.

I have been in a Catholic Church for a while, but the Charismatic stuff seems to be growing, and it's the only group of really active people in the parish. I was told (I did not go) they had some speaking in tongues and "Resting in the Spirit" or "Slain in the Spirit" at a recent prayer meeting.

I don't even feel like participating in the sacraments here anymore. Catholicism is so divided and mixed up. I came here from a Baptist background, and honestly after seeing the Charismatic stuff - my old Baptist church almost looks more "orthodox" and much more united.

My question - there are some (few) conservative Catholics that don't like all the Charismatic stuff, and I respect them. The fact that the Bishop is allowing this stuff, and the Vatican really, has caused me to pretty much loose what respect I had left for them. Am I being to harsh or closed minded? Would I have a similar issue in Orthodoxy?

Before you reject it altogether, I would advise you to find out what it is that makes those ones the more active folk in your church. Putting the manifestations aside, which are much less important and optional, have a look at whether they see sinning souls for Christ, believing the Bible, teaching the necessity of repentance, and the importance of living a holy life, teaching that it is important for everyone to find their calling and involvement in the church to serve the Lord. If those foundations are in place, then it has to be good and of God. So what if people get excited about worshiping and serving the Lord. Better than sitting like passive wooden Indians in a pew on a Sunday morning. When I joined an Anglican church after leaving my last Charismatic church, I loved the liturgy and the Charismatic group that was in that church. It seemed to me that I was having the best of both worlds.

When I went forward (at the age of 29) to be confirmed by the Bishop, I walked between the choir which was on both sides, and they were singing "Hallelujah!" which near blew me off my feet with the presence of God. And that was in a non-Charismatic, liturgical service!

I have not given up my Pentecostal theology, but as a long-time elder in the Presbyterian Church, I have adapted it to just encouraging the folks to be aware of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. I have used the gift of prophecy in the church, plus ministered healing to sick people. No hype, no manifestations, but in total keeping with my Pentecostal/Charismatic theology. Just because of some unusual manifestations and over-enthusiasm from some (and they called the early Methodists "enthusiasts" as well!), there is no sense in rejecting Charismatic theology, because, it was the theology of the early Catholic Church before the fifth Century AD.

 

[Markie Boy]

Oscarr - from what I understand there are Pentecostals that are not in agreement with some of the excesses of manifestations too. Can I ask if - if a priest asks someone if they want the gift of tongues, and they say yes - and then according to them they start going off in the wildest tongues - is that normative for Pentecostalism? Or does that fall under excess?

Just trying to understand where people are coming from.

The people in this group I know are on one hand good, dedicated Christians, but I would also say not very well formed - not able to "Test all things" very well.

When I tried to show Scripturally that how they were doing things was wrong they just blew it off. The local priest agreed off record, but does not want confrontation and the Bishop is OK-ing this traveling priest to do the stuff, so - I give up.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes, we absolutely have charismatic elders and the fruits of the Spirit to include speaking in tongues in Orthodoxy. it is, however, not like how the modern Charismatic Movement operates. if you look historically, the way that these gifts manifest in the modern Charismatic Movement (chaotically, randomly, very carnal and sensual, no struggle for virtue, etc) is more in line with demonic possession than anything of God.

 

[All4Christ]

I am thankful that the Orthodox Church does not consider tongues to be the normative sign of salvation. I was manipulated as a child to fake speaking in tongues, which I am ashamed of doing to this day (altar call when I was 11, where they wouldn’t let me go until I spoke in tongues). I tried, but it wasn’t a gift given to me...yet they did not accept that. I’m not saying everyone is like that - my family is not like that - but that experience did strongly impact me. Tongues is not the sign of salvation, and it is not a gift given to all. We are all given various gifts.

I don’t deny that there is a fruit of the spirit that includes speaking in tongues, and certainly prophecy and healing are an important part of the charismatic in the Church, but I definitely believe that there is abuse within some charismatic circles. We (Orthodox) don’t have a cessationist view (Fr Matt explained it well), but we don’t have a “charismatic movement” and the services won’t be like a Pentecostal or Charismatic Church. If nothing else, we are very wary of entrance of spiritual pride, causing us to be cautious claiming that we have specific sign gifts of the Spirit. As Markie mentioned - we need to test all things.

 

[Goatee]

I stay clear of the charismatic side of the church. It all seems rather dark to me. It seems unreal.

Does God really want people yelping in a gibberish tongue out loud? What benefit is it to that person or the crowd?

Tongues for me, were in the days of the Apostles. When they spread the word to all nations in their own languages!

 

[Hermit76]

An example of Orthodox tongues is when a foreigner visited Saint Paisios of Athos and communicated with Elder Paisios in his native language while Elder Paisios spoke Greek. The man, who could not speak Greek, understood the Elder and vice versa.

 

[ArmyMatt]

An example of Orthodox tongues is when a foreigner visited Saint Paisios of Athos and communicated with Elder Paisios in his native language while Elder Paisios spoke Greek. The man, who could not speak Greek, understood the Elder and vice versa.

I heard something similar when a Russian monk spoke to Elder Ephraim in Arizona

 

[Lukaris]

There actually was an Orthodox priest named Fr Eusebius ( Stephanou ) who tried to spread a Charismatic Movement in the
Orthodox Church from the 1960s until his death in 2016 (memory eternal). Fortunately, this never gained any traction; I remember
reading some of his stuff and glad I was not confused since I had been newly chrismated.

I believe his motives were sincere but his methods unsound. In fact the press he received from the group: Orthodox Christian Laity ( OCL) shows that they are probably best avoided. http://ocl.org/memory-archimandrite-eusebius-stephanou/

 

[~Anastasia~]

There actually was an Orthodox priest named Fr Eusebius ( Stephanou ) who tried to spread a Charismatic Movement in the
Orthodox Church from the 1960s until his death in 2016 (memory eternal). Fortunately, this never gained any traction; I remember
reading some of his stuff and glad I was not confused since I had been newly chrismated.

I believe his motives were sincere but his methods unsound. In fact the press he received from the group: Orthodox Christian Laity ( OCL) shows that they are probably best avoided. http://ocl.org/memory-archimandrite-eusebius-stephanou/

I did not know this.

If I get the names right ... I was overjoyed at first to learn a family member was Orthodox. She was the only person I invited to my baptism. But as it turns out, she was received by Fr. Eusebius I think. She preferred to follow him rather than the Church, and if her comments are a true indication, she sees herself as some combination of pagan, Christian, "higher truth" sort of believer that I can't figure out. It made me very sad.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, Fr Eusebius fell into the trap of thinking one saint, St Symeon the New Theologian, towered above all others. which means he tended to make St Symeon's mystical experiences and writings the standard.

 

[Lukaris]

I did not know this.

If I get the names right ... I was overjoyed at first to learn a family member was Orthodox. She was the only person I invited to my baptism. But as it turns out, she was received by Fr. Eusebius I think. She preferred to follow him rather than the Church, and if her comments are a true indication, she sees herself as some combination of pagan, Christian, "higher truth" sort of believer that I can't figure out. It made me very sad.

Sadly this person you know has really fallen. Fr Eusebius, as far as I know, never tried to alter doctrine. His tendencies seemed
troubling though; he wrote something called, “sacramentalized but not evangelized” which stressed “charismatic” behavior for
“revival” because the Orthodox
were wallowing in “sacramentalism”.

 

[Markie Boy]

I am less opposed to tongues than I used to be - so I'm learning a little. I don't doubt it happens, but it seems a lot of "misuse", possibly more than authentic, is common.

It's really the Slain in the Spirit (they have toned it down to calling it resting in the Spirit) - that stuff bothers me.........

 

[prodromos]

If you read the many spiritual encounters of our Saints in the Orthodox Church, it is noteworthy that they NEVER lose control of their bodies. If they were standing at the beginning our their encounter, they were still standing at the end, unless of course they voluntarily fell on their face to worship

 

[FireDragon76]

Charismatic movements are common in many western churches more or less, especially the larger ones.

I know somebody that is an Episcopalian that had hands placed on her and she ended up on the floor, like being "slain in the Spirit" as they say. This is somebody, mind you, who has advanced college degrees and works in the mental health field. Her description of what the experience felt like sounded like something that happened to me over a year ago, but it did not involve me falling down or anyone touching me. And I don't even go to a charismatic church.

I think you should keep an open mind but don't feel pressured to participate in anything you don't want to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If you read the many spiritual encounters of our Saints in the Orthodox Church, it is noteworthy that they NEVER lose control of their bodies. If they were standing at the beginning our their encounter, they were still standing at the end, unless of course they voluntarily fell on their face to worship

yep, the spirit of prophecy is subject to the prophet as St Paul teaches. those granted gifts of the spirit willingly submit to God's will and never lose control.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sadly this person you know has really fallen. Fr Eusebius, as far as I know, never tried to alter doctrine. His tendencies seemed
troubling though; he wrote something called, “sacramentalized but not evangelized” which stressed “charismatic” behavior for
“revival” because the Orthodox
were wallowing in “sacramentalism”.

I don't think it was the priest who taught such strange thzings ... but it was perhaps the matter of siding with a well-liked priest against the Church (even if such a choice wasn't necessary or asked for) that I suspect began the problem. An embracing of rebellion.

I have not given up on them though.