Catholic Meaning of Grace

spockrates

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I was raised Catholic, but left the church when I was a teenager. I like to tell my “Protestant” friends I’ve forgotten more about Catholicism than they’ll ever know!

So, one thing I’m not sure about: What does the word grace mean? For example, what did St. Paul intend the word to mean here?

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2)

Not looking to debate. Just wanting clarification. :)
 

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So, one thing I’m not sure about: What does the word grace mean? For example, what did St. Paul intend the word to mean here?
I like the acronym GRACE
God's
Riches As in the unsearchable riches of Christ
At
Christ's
Expense

It is only through Jesus that we receive anything from God. We do not deserve anything but wrath from God.
 
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Dave G.

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Maybe the Amplified bible would help bring clarity to Ephesians 2:8-10, though it's pretty self descriptive actually. The Amplified expands on description. Anyway from the Amplified:
Ephesians 2:8-10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. 10 For we are His workmanship [His own master work, a work of art], created in Christ Jesus [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, ready to be used] for good works, which God prepared [for us] beforehand [taking paths which He set], so that we would walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us].
 
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zippy2006

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I was raised Catholic, but left the church when I was a teenager. I like to tell my “Protestant” friends I’ve forgotten more about Catholicism than they’ll ever know!

So, one thing I’m not sure about: What does the word grace mean? For example, what did St. Paul intend the word to mean here?

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2)

Not looking to debate. Just wanting clarification. :)

Thanks for your question, Spockrates. Or, as Bill and Ted would say, Spo-ckrates. ;)

St. Paul actually gives the bare-bones definition in verse 8, "The gift of God." That is the simplest way to think about it. In Catholicism the word and concept has a range of meaning (e.g. "actual grace," "sanctifying grace," "prevenient grace," etc.).

I would simplify it by saying that it is God's aid, His way of helping us to do his will. The primary category for Catholicism would be sanctifying grace, which is something like God's indwelling presence and power within a Christian. God dwells within us, leading us to salvation. Those who have sanctifying grace are said to be in a "state of grace." Fish swim in water; Catholics swim in grace.

Here are some simple sources:

Best,
-Zip
 
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zippy2006

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Sorry, I thought you were an atheist when I wrote my first post. Now I realize you're a Protestant. Did you post in the "Christian Apologetics" forum by accident?

(Unfortunately now I'll have to destroy you; Pope Francis said atheists can go to heaven, but he didn't say anything about Protestants. :neutral:)

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2)

Exegetically if we look at Eph 2:1-10 Paul is saying, "God did it." You were dead, but now you are alive. God did that. You were following the prince of the air, but now you are God's handiwork. Grace is the gift of God, and Paul is here emphasizing the "God" part. I think that's actually what Paul primarily means by 'grace' in that context. "From God."

"And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (v. 8).

Actually it may be good that you posted in the Christian Apologetics forum, because apparently I am able to tell you the same thing I tell the atheists. Goddidit! :innocent:
 
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spockrates

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I like the acronym GRACE
God's
Riches As in the unsearchable riches of Christ
At
Christ's
Expense

It is only through Jesus that we receive anything from God. We do not deserve anything but wrath from God.
Thanks. So, are you saying anything and everything we receive from God is an example of His grace (e.g., each answered prayer *is* grace)?
 
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spockrates

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Maybe the Amplified bible would help bring clarity to Ephesians 2:8-10, though it's pretty self descriptive actually. The Amplified expands on description. Anyway from the Amplified:
Ephesians 2:8-10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. 10 For we are His workmanship [His own master work, a work of art], created in Christ Jesus [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, ready to be used] for good works, which God prepared [for us] beforehand [taking paths which He set], so that we would walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us].
Thanks. So, would you say, “compassion and favor” is all grace is and nothing more?
 
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spockrates

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Sorry, I thought you were an atheist when I wrote my first post. Now I realize you're a Protestant. Did you post in the "Christian Apologetics" forum by accident?

(Unfortunately now I'll have to destroy you; Pope Francis said atheists can go to heaven, but he didn't say anything about Protestants. :neutral:)



Exegetically if we look at Eph 2:1-10 Paul is saying, "God did it." You were dead, but now you are alive. God did that. You were following the prince of the air, but now you are God's handiwork. Grace is the gift of God, and Paul is here emphasizing the "God" part. I think that's actually what Paul primarily means by 'grace' in that context. "From God."

"And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (v. 8).

Actually it may be good that you posted in the Christian Apologetics forum, because apparently I am able to tell you the same thing I tell the atheists. Goddidit! :innocent:
Rather than either-or, could I be both-and? I spoke to a priest recently and he told me that since I was baptised by a priest as an infant and confirmed in the faith as a teen, I will always be a Catholic. Some Protestants tell me that since I made a profession of faith and was baptised as an adult, I will always be a Christian.

I’m guessing that’s good news for me, since i don’t know who’s right!
 
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spockrates

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Thanks for your question, Spockrates. Or, as Bill and Ted would say, Spo-ckrates. ;)

St. Paul actually gives the bare-bones definition in verse 8, "The gift of God." That is the simplest way to think about it. In Catholicism the word and concept has a range of meaning (e.g. "actual grace," "sanctifying grace," "prevenient grace," etc.).

I would simplify it by saying that it is God's aid, His way of helping us to do his will. The primary category for Catholicism would be sanctifying grace, which is something like God's indwelling presence and power within a Christian. God dwells within us, leading us to salvation. Those who have sanctifying grace are said to be in a "state of grace." Fish swim in water; Catholics swim in grace.

Here are some simple sources:

Best,
-Zip
Thanks. So, please tell me more about the sanctifying kind of grace. Is it this grace that is responsible for helping us think, talk and behave more like Christ?
 
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Dave G.

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Thanks. So, would you say, “compassion and favor” is all grace is and nothing more?
He had enough compassion and favor and also mercy to send His only begotten Son to the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. It's a free gift from God but we must open that gift ( accept His Son). I wouldn't take that lightly. He looks to pour His grace out on us beyond the cross, often we overlook it. We also like to work something into it once we recognize it, when it's complete as is. Grace Mercy Love. He loves us. We mess up, He has mercy on those who seek Him and who seek His forgiveness, why ? Because He loves us. What does He do? Pours his grace out on us in forgiveness. He loves us enough to want us with Him, why ? I have no idea, but He does. We don't throw our kids out with the bath water when they act up, neither does God.

Abide in Him, abide in the person of Jesus Christ and let the denominations shoot out their own differences. It's all about Jesus, seek Him with all your heart your mind and strength.
 
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zippy2006

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Thanks. So, please tell me more about the sanctifying kind of grace. Is it this grace that is responsible for helping us think, talk and behave more like Christ?

I think that's a fair way of saying it. Here is a quote from New Advent on Sanctifying Grace:

If we were asked to condense all that we have thus far been considering into a definition, we would formulate the following: Sanctifying grace is "a quality strictly supernatural, inherent in the soul as a habitus, by which we are made to participate in the divine nature".

It goes on to give four formal operations of sanctifying grace: sanctity of soul, beauty of soul, friendship with God, and divine sonship or adoption. The first time sanctifying grace is infused into the soul is at baptism.

Sanctifying grace is very much related to St. Peter's words:

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3-4).
Rather than either-or, could I be both-and? ...i don’t know who’s right!

I think 'agnostic' fits better than 'Atheist and Christian.' ;)
 
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spockrates

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He had enough compassion and favor and also mercy to send His only begotten Son to the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. It's a free gift from God but we must open that gift ( accept His Son). I wouldn't take that lightly. He looks to pour His grace out on us beyond the cross, often we overlook it. We also like to work something into it once we recognize it, when it's complete as is. Grace Mercy Love. He loves us. We mess up, He has mercy on those who seek Him and who seek His forgiveness, why ? Because He loves us. What does He do? Pours his grace out on us in forgiveness. He loves us enough to want us with Him, why ? I have no idea, but He does. We don't throw our kids out with the bath water when they act up, neither does God.

Abide in Him, abide in the person of Jesus Christ and let the denominations shoot out their own differences. It's all about Jesus, seek Him with all your heart your mind and strength.

Thank you. I believe your answer to my question must be, “Yes.”
 
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spockrates

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I think that's a fair way of saying it. Here is a quote from New Advent on Sanctifying Grace:

It goes on to give four formal operations of sanctifying grace: sanctity of soul, beauty of soul, friendship with God, and divine sonship or adoption. The first time sanctifying grace is infused into the soul is at baptism.

Sanctifying grace is very much related to St. Peter's words:

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3-4).​
Yeah, yeah! I see. :)

So, would you say Ephesians 2:8 is speaking of this sanctifying kind of grace?

“By grace you are saved through faith...”

I think 'agnostic' fits better than 'Atheist and Christian.' ;)

Yeah, no. I mean, I don’t know. When I ask most agonists if they think God exists, they tell me, “I don’t know, but if he, she or it does, I really couldn’t say what such a God is like.”

Me, I’m the strange kind of agnostic, if indeed I am. For as long as I can remember (since I was old enough to remember) I’ve never had any doubts about God’s existence. When I hear someone say, “I don’t know if there is a God,” the idea seems alien and illogical to me. I’ve never experienced such a thought, and can’t imagine what such an experience of doubt must be like!

Though for many years I’ve been uncertain about God’s nature and the means by which someone may dwell with this God after death.
 
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zippy2006

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Yeah, yeah! I see. :)

So, would you say Ephesians 2:8 is speaking of this sanctifying kind of grace?

“By grace you are saved through faith...”

I think that would be the Catholic interpretation, yes.

Yeah, no. I mean, I don’t know. When I ask most agonists if they think God exists, they tell me, “I don’t know, but if he, she or it does, I really couldn’t say what such a God is like.”

Me, I’m the strange kind of agnostic, if indeed I am. For as long as I can remember (since I was old enough to remember) I’ve never had any doubts about God’s existence. When I hear someone say, “I don’t know if there is a God,” the idea seems alien and illogical to me. I’ve never experienced such a thought, and can’t imagine what such an experience of doubt must be like!

Though for many years I’ve been uncertain about God’s nature and the means by which someone may dwell with this God after death.

Okay, well that makes sense to me. God's nature is in reality a very slippery thing. We actually know relatively little about God--just the things he tells us or the few things we can infer through reason.

What has been your path? I know you started Catholic. Where did you go from there and how did you end up where you are?
 
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spockrates

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I think that would be the Catholic interpretation, yes.

It seems odd to me that the entire Catholic - Protestant divide is centered on one simple question: “What comes first, the chicken or the egg?” Do you see what I mean, or would you like me to explain?

Okay, well that makes sense to me. God's nature is in reality a very slippery thing. We actually know relatively little about God--just the things he tells us or the few things we can infer through reason.

What has been your path? I know you started Catholic. Where did you go from there and how did you end up where you are?

Catholic > Born Again Fundamentalist Baptist > Evangelical Mennonite > Evangelical Presbyterian (Reformed Calvinist) > Evangelical Non-Denominational > Methodist
 
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zippy2006

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It seems odd to me that the entire Catholic - Protestant divide is centered on one simple question: “What comes first, the chicken or the egg?” Do you see what I mean, or would you like me to explain?

Would you please explain?

Catholic > Born Again Fundamentalist Baptist > Evangelical Mennonite > Evangelical Presbyterian (Reformed Calvinist) > Evangelical Non-Denominational > Methodist

Wow, that's a long road! Maybe you have a career in ecumenism? :)
 
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spockrates

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Would you please explain?
Sure! So, I’m thinking of the egg being salvation and the chicken being sanctification.

Please correct me if I’m wrong: I’m guessing a Catholic would say the chicken comes before the egg. Sanctification comes first and gives birth to salvation. It is a necessary cause of salvation, but never it’s effect.

I’m also thinking many Protestants, such as a good number of Evangelicals would say the egg comes before the chicken, which hatches from it, starting as a clumsy chick and growing into a mature hen or rooster. Salvation always comes first, giving birth to sanctification, but sanctification never gives birth to salvation. We are saved to do good works, not by them, and God will reward us for them, but this reward can never be salvation, for salvation is an absolutely free gift.
Wow, that's a long road! Maybe you have a career in ecumenism? :)
:)

It’s a kind of double edged sword. A blessing that gives me an open mind and a desire to learn, but a curse that renders me less certain of what to believe than those with much stronger faith who teach me.
 
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zippy2006

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Sure! So, I’m thinking of the egg being salvation and the chicken being sanctification.

Please correct me if I’m wrong: I’m guessing a Catholic would say the chicken comes before the egg. Sanctification comes first and gives birth to salvation. It is a necessary cause of salvation, but never it’s effect.

I’m also thinking many Protestants, such as a good number of Evangelicals would say the egg comes before the chicken, which hatches from it, starting as a clumsy chick and growing into a mature hen or rooster. Salvation always comes first, giving birth to sanctification, but sanctification never gives birth to salvation.

I agree with all of that, yes. At the same time, let's dig a little deeper. Your categories and experience--particularly your concept of 'salvation'--are largely formed by Evangelical Christianity. Since Catholics and Evangelicals have notably different understandings of salvation the question can become complicated. For example, let's take two propositions, one from a Catholic and one from an Evangelical:
  • The Catholic says, "Sanctification leads to salvation."
  • The Evangelical says, "Salvation leads to sanctification."
While it looks fairly simple, the fact that the two groups define 'salvation' differently becomes important. I just wanted to point that out. But let's talk about the early Protestants, such as the Lutherans and the Calvinists, rather than the Evangelicals. The early Protestants were the first Protestants to break away from the Catholic Church and for that reason they make for an easier comparison.

Both Catholics and early Protestants agree that the initial state is called 'justification,' and that justification leads to sanctification. At the same time they disagree over certain details of justification. This dispute about justification eventually came to be seen as the heart of the Reformation. Each of the four sources I gave you in this post talk about justification, and many of them compare the Catholic understanding to the Protestant understanding.

We are saved to do good works, not by them, and God will reward us for them, but this reward can never be salvation, for salvation is an absolutely free gift.

Evangelicals will say this, yes, but at the heart of the issue is that question of justification. In response to the Reformation the Catholic Church called the Council of Trent. Session VI of the Council addressed the question of justification, and you can read the canons here. The first three canons relate to the theme I pointed out about Ephesians 2 in this post, that idea that "God did it."

I don't want this post to be too long. It may already be too long. For now I will just give a very short glimpse of the Catholic view. Protestants distinguish grace and work. If it is grace then it is not a work (a work is just something that a human does). If it is a work then it is not grace.

For Catholics it's not that simple. As I said earlier, God's nature is very mysterious. Catholics believe that something can be grace and a work at the same time. They don't have to be completely separate, even if they often are separate. So for Catholics justification is always God's act, it is always grace, but it can still involve a work (cf. James 2:24). Really for Catholics, even the act of faith, the act of believing, is a work, for it is something that a human does. Belief is a human act. Maybe you could even say that belief is a good work. Anyway, that's enough for now!

It’s a kind of double edged sword. A blessing that gives me an open mind and a desire to learn, but a curse that renders me less certain of what to believe than those with much stronger faith who teach me.

That makes sense. It is my belief that, in the end, it will be more of a blessing than a curse.
 
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