Catholic Leaders Urge Support for Boy Scouts Under New Policy on Gays

[KatherineS]

It still is a matter of Religious Freedom. We have the right of religious freedom. That's unlike France's "freedom from religion" (as is noted by French columnist of Reason magazine, Veronique de Rugy.)

YOUR religious freedom does not allow YOU to tell the Boy Scouts they must exclude gays.

In fact, since your religion (the Catholic Church) does not object to BSA allowing gays as scouts, no have no religious freedom to even claim that. (you do have a free speech right to shoot off your mouth however you want, but no religious freedom claim).

 

[Genersis]

To clarify, the scouts aren't secular, but pluralist.
As belief in a higher power is considered necessary for membership; that is, if I remember correctly.

 

[Needing_Grace]

To clarify, the scouts aren't secular, but pluralist.
As belief in a higher power is considered necessary for membership; that is, if I remember correctly.

I think the correct term is syncretist.

Isn't that a heresy or something?

 

[Genersis]

I think the correct term is syncretist.

Isn't that a heresy or something?

Not sure.
I thought syncretism entails merging beliefs into a new belief system? While the scouts keep them distinct?

Either way, neither pluralism nor syncretism are too popular.
Then again, neither would a secular approach.

People get angry when multiple religions and their higher powers are presented as valid.
People get angry when religion is only approached in a manner without any claims to their validities.

 

[KatherineS]

I think the correct term is syncretist.

Isn't that a heresy or something?

What makes them differnent from the Masons?

 

[Chrystal-J]

The question is therefore, whose rights are greater? How does the action in question affect the involved parties directly? If everyone has a right to healthcare, at what point does someone have the right to deny that coverage to someone else?

Does the government have the right to force someone to go against their religious beliefs?

 

[Chrystal-J]

America allows gays to be citizens. Does that mean the southern baptists are going to leave America on-mass?

If they don't want to participate in something that goes against their religious beliefs, then they have that right. (For now anyway, I'm sure Christians will be persecuted for their beliefs at some point, the way things are going.)

 

[ebia]

Does the government have the right to force someone to go against their religious beliefs?

Yes,

 

[AMDG]

Yes,

Maybe yours, but not ours.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Are Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or Pagan boys allowed to join? I didn't realize agnostics and atheists weren't welcome.

Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu all have BSA badges you can earn as a Boy Scout.

I, Personally, have pinned religious badges on Scouts who have earned them.

Agnositics and Atheists aren't allowed to join because a scout has to be able to swear out the scout oath faithfully and the scout oath has a reference to God.

There is not corresponding part of the oath that contains an affirmation.

That's really the only reason why. It's not because of any real "religious" thing as such.

 

[ebia]

Maybe yours, but not ours.

Any government. Religious freedom has to have some limits when it runs into conflict with other rights and freedoms.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Maybe yours, but not ours.

Tell that to the Native Americans who have been barred from the use of peyote as a religious practice.

Or

Voodoo practicals and animal sacrifices.

or

Rastafarians for that matter

And

or how about all those Quakers and others who spent time in federal prison for failing to report for the draft ?


I would note that the US goverment made a specific exception for the Catholic Church's use of wine for it's religious ceremonies during Prohibition.


So much for the persecutions of Christianity

 

[Tallguy88]

Any government. Religious freedom has to have some limits when it runs into conflict with other rights and freedoms.

Aztec sun worshipers can't perform human sacrifices, even though it's one of the most important parts of their faith.

 

[Needing_Grace]

What makes them differnent from the Masons?

I was thinking this myself.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Chrystal-J]

Any government. Religious freedom has to have some limits when it runs into conflict with other rights and freedoms.

If Christians consider abortion murder, then they should have the right not to participate in any form of that act. Or should Christians be forced to participate in something they consider to be murder?

 

[Tallguy88]

If Christians consider abortion murder, then they should have the right not to participate in any form of that act. Or should Christians be forced to participate in something they consider to be murder?

It depends on what one considers "participation." No one is forcing anyone else to directly participate in an abortion.

 

[KatherineS]

Maybe yours, but not ours.

You make a common argument of the pro-abortionists -- my religion doesn't prohibit abortion so I have a right to abort.

Are you pro-choice or just in a political alliance with them?

 

[Chrystal-J]

It depends on what one considers "participation." No one is forcing anyone else to directly participate in an abortion.

Health insurance initiatives forced on Catholic employers that make them pay for abortions would still be in conflict with Catholic/Christian teachings. How is it any different than someone paying for a contract killing? You don't do the actually killing, but you pay for someone else to do it. And if Catholics consider abortion murder, then paying someone to perform them is a part of the abortion process.

 

[KatherineS]

Health insurance initiatives forced on Catholic employers that make them pay for abortions would still be in conflict with Catholic/Christian teachings.

By the health insurance industry? It shows you how evil capitalism is. Thank God President Obama eliminated abortion coverage in the Affordable Care Act.

And God bless the American people for TWICE electing him!

And God bless the people of the Holy Catholic Church in the USA for giving him a majority of our votes BOTH times!!!

 

[AMDG]

Any government. Religious freedom has to have some limits when it runs into conflict with other rights and freedoms.

No. Our country has guaranteed religious freedom under the First Amendment of our Constitution.

In addition, to answer all your objections, may I suggest the site concerning Catholic statements concerning religious freedom concerning this very topic.

It is Religious Liberty FAQ | Marriage Unique for a Reason

The answer to the first question about religious freedom is"

1. What is religious liberty?

Religious liberty is “the right to live in the truth of one’s faith and in conformity with one’s transcendent dignity as a person” (CA, no. 47). “Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits” (CCC, no. 2106, quoting DH, no. 2). Religious liberty is so important that John Paul II called it the “source and synthesis” of rights considered basic to every human person (CA, no. 47).

CA = The Encyclical Centesimus Annus, Pope John Paul II
CCC = The Catechism of the Caholic Church, 2nd edition, Pope John Paul II
DH = Declaration of the Ecumenical Council, the Second Vatican Council
Dignitatis Humanae


In the U.S. there must be really, really life concerning for the government to interfere with religion (for example a judge has to take temporary custody of a child to order a blood transfusion for a Jehovah Witness who does not believe in blood transfusions, and it must be shown that there is no other way to save life except to do this.) So claiming that human sacrifice alone shows that the government can willy-nilly interfere with freedom of religion is an incorrect example. It is not the norm and the government is acting only to save life.