Catholic Leaders Urge Support for Boy Scouts Under New Policy on Gays

[Tallguy88]

They are not affiliated with one but they sure are far from being truly secular if they have policies with regards to atheists, agnostics, homosexuals, and there are Christian influences within.

They are influence by religion. So is the US, yet both are secular because they are not controlled by, nor directly affiliated with religion.

Don't sign the contract if there's something in there that you can not or will not abide to.

An illegal contract is unenforceable.

 

[Tallguy88]

Are Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or Pagan boys allowed to join? I didn't realize agnostics and atheists weren't welcome.

Yes.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

They are influence by religion. So is the US, yet both are secular because they are not controlled by, nor directly affiliated with religion.

You're talking about the country as a whole, where praying in public places has been stricken down, various government offices have replaced "God," and where anything pinpointing to a higher power off any sort is to be banned.

You really want to make that comparison with a group who does not hide the fact of their Christian background?

An illegal contract is unenforceable.

What makes it illegal? You have an institution teaching that certain activities are immoral, that stance is black & white, and you have a person that does not honor it...EVEN THOUGH they agreed to it.

That's nothing more than a person having her cake and wanting to eat it too.

Public school =/= Private/Catholic school

But it's cool, I want all Catholic school to be abolished.

 

[MagicSabbath]

“I Refuse to Administer Communion to Any Boy Scout of America…”

May 31, 2013 By Deacon Greg Kandra

About the Deacon

Deacon Greg Kandra is a Roman Catholic deacon serving the Diocese of Brooklyn, New York. In February 2011, he was named the Executive Editor of ONE, the acclaimed magazine published by the Catholic Near East Welfare Association (CNEWA). In 2012, ONE received an unprecedented 21 awards from the Catholic Press Association, including First Place for General Excellence.

Since the Scouts bar all sexual activity..this is not at odds with Catholic teaching. Like I said the issue will come after it is implemented in other ways of confirming the lifestyle as valid. If that does not happen, then ok.

The new policy admitting openly homosexual boys begins January 1, 2014.

Membership Standards Resolution
....WHEREAS, the current adult leadership standard of the Boy Scouts of America states:

The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and abide by the Scout Oath and the Scout Law.
​

While the BSA does not proactively inquire about sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.
​

AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting; and
WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America does not have an agenda on the matter of sexual orientation, and resolving this complex issue is not the role of the organization, nor may any member use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda; and...




NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED THAT:
The following membership standard for youth members of the Boy Scouts of America is hereby adopted and approved, effective Jan. 1, 2014:

Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all youth who meet the specific membership requirements to join the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Sea Scout, and Venturing programs. Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.
​

I can see the day when the first gay Scout is dismissed for having a boyfriend. The gay hate groups, like GLAAD, are going to be all over it screaming sex discrimination! Homophobia! Etc...

 

[Tallguy88]

You're talking about the country as a whole, where praying in public places has been stricken down, various government offices have replaced "God," and where anything pinpointing to a higher power off any sort is to be banned.

You really want to make that comparison with a group who does not hide the fact of their Christian background?

The current fad of completely separating religion from the public sphere is not inherent to secularism. So one can acknowledge religion, even pay it deference, and still be secular. When they declare that they are a religious organization, or become intricately affiliated with a particular religion, then they will be a religious organization, not a secular one.

What makes it illegal?

The law.

Public school =/= Private/Catholic school

Private entities are not exempt from anti-discrimination laws. You can't refuse to rent an apartment to a couple who is living together unmarried. Doesn't matter that you're a private business man and are morally opposed to fornication. You provide services to the public, you have to follow the law. This school teaches Catholics and non-Catholics alike, even hires non-Catholics as teachers. As such, they must obey the laws against discrimination.

 

[MagicSabbath]

The current fad of completely separating religion from the public sphere is not inherent to secularism. So one can acknowledge religion, even pay it deference, and still be secular. When they declare that they are a religious organization, or become intricately affiliated with a particular religion, then they will be a religious organization, not a secular one.

The scouts are a non-denominational religious organization, with charters.
They enjoy a 501(c)(3) Public charity tax exempt status through the IRS.

To imply they are a secular organization denies there would be any religious affiliation whatever in the Scouts. That is clearly not true.

The oath, if nothing else, should prove that.

Scout Oath (or Promise)​

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.


However, if that is not enough there is an old legal decision from 2004:

Boy Scout ruling a triumph of intolerance

By Mark Pulliam
Monday, April 26, 2004

Judge Jones' ruling rests on the premise that the Boy Scouts -- solely because of their belief in God -- is a "religious organization," and that by allowing the Scouts to lease city-owned land it is therefore "advancing religion" and "religious indoctrination." On this basis, Judge Jones concluded that the lease is invalid and the Scouts must be evicted, despite the fact that the Boy Scouts invested millions of dollars in capital improvements.

Private entities are not exempt from anti-discrimination laws.

This issue has been argued before. And it's not as cut and dried as some would like to think.


"There is no constitutional right to enter someone else's property, even if it is a business. Just because a business is "open to the public" it does not mean that the federal government may force owners to welcome anyone who wants to be a customer."
Rand Paul is right, Rachel Maddow is wrong: anti-discrimination laws discriminate





I know someone who is a chef at a very exclusive resort owned by a global Corporation. Their discrimination is patent and legal. They are a private entity, with exclusive membership. And there are certain people whom they will not allow to apply for membership, which is afforded only when two members in good standing make membership recommendation and after a vetting of the candidate.



This club is so exclusive that if Obama showed up alone and asked to be seated in their dining hall at any of their global locations, if he wasn't made a guest by any member present, he would not be allowed in.



So it is a false notion that all private entities are forbidden from discrimination. They can and they do. And in America they should be allowed to.



Not everyone should be allowed access to every place just because they think they're entitled. Discrimination laws on a federal level apply to government and employers. Private companies are entitled to discriminate against doing business with the public.

It's why there are signs in some places that state quite forthrightly, we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.



If someone comes in and disrupts a place of business, they can be tossed out.
To hear some tell it, that person could make a stir and not be refused service simply because that place of business is open to the public.



A bakery in Oregon a few months back cited their refusal to create a wedding cake for a Lesbian wedding. Threats were made, media jumped all over it, and yet authorities did nothing because the owner cited their religious freedom to refuse the service of baking a cake.



That's the beauty of America. The freedom to say yes!
And the freedom to say no!

 

[AMDG]

Private entities are not exempt from anti-discrimination laws. You can't refuse to rent an apartment to a couple who is living together unmarried. Doesn't matter that you're a private business man and are morally opposed to fornication. You provide services to the public, you have to follow the law. This school teaches Catholics and non-Catholics alike, even hires non-Catholics as teachers. As such, they must obey the laws against discrimination.

Now that's a problem. Violates the First Amendment--freedom of religion. No one has the right to require one to violate the tenets of his religion, not in the U.S. I imagine that this will be this in court--the ACLJ (American Center for Law and Justice), the Becket Society, the Thomas Moore Society. Further, I imagine that should the law fail to protect Freedom of Religion, the business will simply close rather than be forced to violate. (Folks should really read II Maccabees chapter 7 if they think they can force people to violate their religious beliefs.)

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

The current fad of completely separating religion from the public sphere is not inherent to secularism. So one can acknowledge religion, even pay it deference, and still be secular. When they declare that they are a religious organization, or become intricately affiliated with a particular religion, then they will be a religious organization, not a secular one.

I think there is a difference between acknowledging religious aspects and following religious aspects. This country fits the former, BSA is more akin to the latter.

The law.

About that....

Private entities are not exempt from anti-discrimination laws. You can't refuse to rent an apartment to a couple who is living together unmarried. Doesn't matter that you're a private business man and are morally opposed to fornication. You provide services to the public, you have to follow the law. This school teaches Catholics and non-Catholics alike, even hires non-Catholics as teachers. As such, they must obey the laws against discrimination.

If that were true, every Ultra Orthodox Jewish school would be closed down because they do not hire women to teach, nor do they hire anyone else who does not adhere to their version of Judaism. The same is true for other faith based schools (Jewish, Muslim). Even if they do fall in line with that particular branch of faith, they expect the faculty to still adhere to the principles of said faith within and outside of school.

What that Catholic school did is no different from what these faith based school have done. And just because they hire and allow non-Catholics to the school, it still doesn't negate the fact that Catholicism still is a primary focus. I went to such a school and it didn't matter if you were Protestant, Baptist, whatever, when the school prayed, you have better bow your head. When classes had to go to mass, you had to attend.

The fact that a landlord has the same weight as a faith based school is an asinine comparison. I mean, you even say this:

When they declare that they are a religious organization, or become intricately affiliated with a particular religion, then they will be a religious organization, not a secular one.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Do you really think openly gay young men are going to be celibate? You'll find pork in your pork&beans before you find a openly gay man who is celibate. It may be in line with some cafeteria churches of nice but it is not in line with the Holy Catholic Church.

Ran

But as Catholics we are not to discriminate against gays. Gays are part of our lives on every level. They are in our churches, schools, workplace and organizations.

The church is not affirming a lifestyle by accepting the fact, that gays should be treated with dignity and respect.

Now if there are gay groups that want to take it to the next level and actively promote a certain lifestyle within the scouts, then that is another matter.

In fairness, I have seen it. It is happening in Jr. high and high schools, as well as the Catholic church and at all colleges and universities. The schools now have gay pride months with various gay promotions that actively and aggressively promote the lifestyle.

There is a certain mission creep with who is behind the curtain, if you will.

 

[Chrystal-J]

From article: “Southern Baptists are going to be leaving the Boy Scouts en masse,” Land continued.

But the Rev. Derek Lappe, pastor of the Our Lady Star of the Sea Catholic Church in Bremerton, Washington, has already made up his mind. “I do not feel that it is possible for us to live out, and to teach, the authentic truth about human sexuality within the confines of the Boy Scout’s new policy,” said Lappe.

Baptists plan exodus from Boy Scouts – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

 

[Tallguy88]

The scouts are a non-denominational religious organization, with charters.
They enjoy a 501(c)(3) Public charity tax exempt status through the IRS.

To imply they are a secular organization denies there would be any religious affiliation whatever in the Scouts. That is clearly not true.

The oath, if nothing else, should prove that.
Scout Oath (or Promise)
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

However, if that is not enough there is an old legal decision from 2004:

Boy Scout ruling a triumph of intolerance

By Mark Pulliam
Monday, April 26, 2004

This issue has been argued before. And it's not as cut and dried as some would like to think.

"There is no constitutional right to enter someone else's property, even if it is a business. Just because a business is "open to the public" it does not mean that the federal government may force owners to welcome anyone who wants to be a customer."
Rand Paul is right, Rachel Maddow is wrong: anti-discrimination laws discriminate

I know someone who is a chef at a very exclusive resort owned by a global Corporation. Their discrimination is patent and legal. They are a private entity, with exclusive membership. And there are certain people whom they will not allow to apply for membership, which is afforded only when two members in good standing make membership recommendation and after a vetting of the candidate.

This club is so exclusive that if Obama showed up alone and asked to be seated in their dining hall at any of their global locations, if he wasn't made a guest by any member present, he would not be allowed in.

So it is a false notion that all private entities are forbidden from discrimination. They can and they do. And in America they should be allowed to.

Not everyone should be allowed access to every place just because they think they're entitled. Discrimination laws on a federal level apply to government and employers. Private companies are entitled to discriminate against doing business with the public.

It's why there are signs in some places that state quite forthrightly, we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

If someone comes in and disrupts a place of business, they can be tossed out.
To hear some tell it, that person could make a stir and not be refused service simply because that place of business is open to the public.

A bakery in Oregon a few months back cited their refusal to create a wedding cake for a Lesbian wedding. Threats were made, media jumped all over it, and yet authorities did nothing because the owner cited their religious freedom to refuse the service of baking a cake.

That's the beauty of America. The freedom to say yes!
And the freedom to say no!

It's not that discrimination is not illegal, per se. Rather, it is illegal to discriminate against certain classes of people, such as by race, religion, gender, etc. While sexual orientation is not universally recognized as a protected class across the nation, I believe it is in Columbus.

 

[Tallguy88]

Now that's a problem. Violates the First Amendment--freedom of religion. No one has the right to require one to violate the tenets of his religion, not in the U.S. I imagine that this will be this in court--the ACLJ (American Center for Law and Justice), the Becket Society, the Thomas Moore Society. Further, I imagine that should the law fail to protect Freedom of Religion, the business will simply close rather than be forced to violate. (Folks should really read II Maccabees chapter 7 if they think they can force people to violate their religious beliefs.)

You talk about the rights of the business owner to uphold his conscience. What about the person being discriminated against? What happened to his rights? Do cohabitators not have a right to housing?

 

[AMDG]

Rather, it is illegal to discriminate against certain classes of people, such as by race, religion, gender, etc.

Then why are some trying to discriminate against our religion--Christianity. That's what it would be, you know.

 

[Tallguy88]

Then why are some trying to discriminate against our religion--Christianity. That's what it would be, you know.

With regards to what? Equal housing, gay employees, or scouting?

 

[Chrystal-J]

With regards to what? Equal housing, gay employees, or scouting?

The right to not have to fund abortions (if you're a business owner) is one of the issues going on here in Michigan. As Christians/Catholics, the owners feel it is against their religion to have to pay for insurance that funds these types of procedures. As well as paying for birth control. It is a form of discrimination to force someone to act against their religious beliefs.

 

[Tallguy88]

The right to not have to fund abortions (if you're a business owner) is one of the issues going on here in Michigan. As Christians/Catholics, the owners feel it is against their religion to have to pay for insurance that funds these types of procedures. As well as paying for birth control. It is a form of discrimination to force someone to act against their religious beliefs.

The question is therefore, whose rights are greater? How does the action in question affect the involved parties directly? If everyone has a right to healthcare, at what point does someone have the right to deny that coverage to someone else?

 

[ebia]

From article: "Southern Baptists are going to be leaving the Boy Scouts en masse," Land continued.

But the Rev. Derek Lappe, pastor of the Our Lady Star of the Sea Catholic Church in Bremerton, Washington, has already made up his mind. "I do not feel that it is possible for us to live out, and to teach, the authentic truth about human sexuality within the confines of the Boy Scout's new policy," said Lappe.

Baptists plan exodus from Boy Scouts - CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

America allows gays to be citizens. Does that mean the southern baptists are going to leave America on-mass?

 

[KatherineS]

Now that's a problem. Violates the First Amendment--freedom of religion. No one has the right to require one to violate the tenets of his religion, not in the U.S.

Of course that is not true. One can't just announce "my religion says I don't have to follow "X" law and not obey it".

The big test is are you hurting other people. If you are selling drugs or assulting people, or discriminating in business dealings, or not paying the parking meter, or wreaking other people's property, saying your religion allows it doesn't mean you don't have to follow the law.

 

[Davidnic]

If gay boys can be welcomed in our congregations they can be welcomed in the scout troops. The key is going to be does this change anything about how the Scouts allow troops to express their own faiths and complications at activities. Are they going to go the route of the Girl Scouts, who support planned parenthood and other things that establish a culture in the troops at times where expression of the Catholic faith is at odds with the organization?

Time will tell.

 

[AMDG]

It still is a matter of Religious Freedom. We have the right of religious freedom. That's unlike France's "freedom from religion" (as is noted by French columnist of Reason magazine, Veronique de Rugy.)