Catholic group defies church, ordains woman priest in NC

Philip_B

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And what Keating is also essentially asserting is that, "The mere fact that the Church infallibly teaches the doctrine of the ensured magisterial infallibility as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.
A Catholic Apologist is saying that if the Church teaches something about it's own infallibility then that is the guarantee that it is true. It would seem, at least superficially to be a circumlocutory style of argument. Repeating the claim does not improve its veracity or otherwise, nor does it help me to accept it.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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A Catholic Apologist is saying that if the Church teaches something about it's own infallibility then that is the guarantee that it is true. It would seem, at least superficially to be a circumlocutory style of argument. Repeating the claim does not improve its veracity or otherwise, nor does it help me to accept it.
Well, Catholics argue that Scripture establishes her as The One True Church® but that one cannot assuredly know what Scripture (etc.) consists of and means apart from faith in her (esp. after they fail to convince one that Scripture supports her distinctive claims).

People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high. - Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, "Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith, p. 72;

...the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." - Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium

And as Keating basically expressed, which faith in her claims is warranted since she possesses ensured (if conditional) magisterial infallibility, since she has infallibly declared that she does.

But many will also attempt to basically argue that being the instruments, discerners and stewards of express Divine revelation, and the inheritor of promises of God's presence and guidance means or requires that such possess said ensured infallibility. But which necessity is not seen in Scripture and effectively invalidates the NT church.

They may also argue that their reasoning is "spiral," that rather than needing to have faith in the Church in order to see what Scripture means and thus place faith in=submission to the Church, they will appeal to Scripture as merely a reliable historical document that provides evidence which warrants said faith and submission, that of a fallible decision in an infallible authority.

However, this is still contrary to the basic premise that one needs to believe the Church to know what is of God, otherwise they must allow that faith in her is not needed for souls to know what is of God, and the are frustrated when souls do not find their arguments convincing.

However, the church began with souls having assuredly discerned what was of God, both men and writings, without an infallible magisterium to tell them, and even in dissent from the magisterial stewards of Holy Writ, and inheritor of the promises of God. (Mt. 23:2; Romans 3:2; 9:4,5)
 
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tulipbee

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Because Christ did not choose woman as priests, and the apostles did not choose women to be ordained deacons. Holy Orders are reserved to men only by virtue of the whole economy of God in such matters, and by the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.
Does the pope have the ability to allow women ordination? They got like 1000 new traditions. Why not make one more for this?
 
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Albion

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Whenever the church changes one of its doctrines, it's necessary to find some way to say that it hasn't actually changed. Otherwise, its claim of being the church that has never changed would be in jeopardy. Sometimes it's possible to work this, but some times it's tough.

In the case of women priests, the church has argued against it from both Tradition and Scripture for centuries and made innumerable declarations against it.

Ironically, a decision to allow married male priests would be a snap since that policy has always been just an administrative decision, not a doctrine, and there have long been exceptions to it.
 
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BroIgnatius

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Does the pope have the ability to allow women ordination? They got like 1000 new traditions. Why not make one more for this?

The Church does not have a 1000 new traditions. Sacred Tradition is not the same as human tradition. Sacred Tradition is the Revelation of God, along with Sacred Scripture, which is a subset as it is Tradition, too. What is Sacred Tradition goes back to the first century and cannot be changed.

Holy Orders restricted to males is Sacred Tradition. It is what Jesus decided, not us. It cannot be changed by anyone. Even if Satan himself were to be elected Pope, he could not change this.
 
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BroIgnatius

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Whenever the church changes one of its doctrines, it's necessary to find some way to say that it hasn't actually changed. Otherwise, its claim of being the church that has never changed would be in jeopardy. Sometimes it's possible to work this, but some times it's tough.
.

That is an offensive remark. The Catholic Church is the only Church who has not changed it doctrines. For example, until 1930 all Christian denominations believed contraception was sin. In 1930 the Anglicans broke ranks with the rest of Christendom and allowed contraception. Today, the Catholic Church is the only one left who maintains this doctrine.
 
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BroIgnatius

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Since this is about the Catholic Church, it is the Catholic Church that has the final say about her own teachings, over sundry opinions, especially of those who are not Catholic and often have anti-Catholic agenda.

I have expressed the Catholic teaching on this, why those teachings on this subject are not changeable, have answered honest questions, and therefore there is nothing more to say. Any more will just devolve into unproductive banter. So I am moving on.
 
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Yarddog

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Which Christians don't want the body and blood of Jesus Christ? Catholics are Christians and over a billion of these Christians want to drink and eat the Eucharist just as scripture and the Apostles taught. The Orthodox also are among these Christians who partake of the Eucharist.
 
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tulipbee

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Which Christians don't want the body and blood of Jesus Christ? Catholics are Christians and over a billion of these Christians want to drink and eat the Eucharist just as scripture and the Apostles taught. The Orthodox also are among these Christians who partake of the Eucharist.
RCC
 
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Albion

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Catholic group defies church, ordains woman priest in NC

As we all know the Catholic Church is currently facing far more pressing issues than the ordination of women!

How wonderful - finally

I appreciate your thinking, but there is another way of looking at this. The other issues you have in mind probably do not involve changing any doctrine. If that's the case, and you are concerned about corruption or church politics or anything along those lines, doing something about it poses no problem other than having the will to make the move.

But woman priests represents a change of doctrine, just as (hypothetically speaking) changing the meaning of the Lord's Supper or changing the church's view of the natures of Christ would do. For a church that makes as one of its main claims that it supposedly never changes doctrine, that's a problem!
 
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Zoii

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I appreciate your thinking, but there is another way of looking at this. The other issues you have in mind probably do not involve changing any doctrine. If that's the case, and you are concerned about corruption or church politics or anything along those lines, doing something about it poses no problem other than having the will to make the move.

But woman priests represents a change of doctrine, just as (hypothetically speaking) changing the meaning of the Lord's Supper or changing the church's view of the natures of Christ would do. For a church that makes as one of its main claims that it supposedly never changes doctrine, that's a problem!
I hear lots about rules, doctrines, tradition, leagalism..... noones talking about what it means to people like me.... noone seems to care its all about rules... I am so happy that its possible I can talk to a female preist
 
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Albion

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I hear lots about rules, doctrines, tradition, leagalism..... noones talking about what it means to people like me.... noone seems to care its all about rules... I am so happy that its possible I can talk to a female preist
Yes, religion is about rules...or at least about what is right and what is not right.

Still in all, what you feel must be shared by a lot of Catholic women, and I wonder if you were to put the point before the people on one of the Catholic forums here, what they'd have to say.
 
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Yarddog

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I hear lots about rules, doctrines, tradition, leagalism..... noones talking about what it means to people like me.... noone seems to care its all about rules... I am so happy that its possible I can talk to a female preist
Haven't you always been able to talk to a female minister before in your church? This woman is not a priest of the Catholic Church. She is a priest in a church which calls itself Catholic.
 
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Zoii

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Haven't you always been able to talk to a female minister before in your church? This woman is not a priest of the Catholic Church. She is a priest in a church which calls itself Catholic.
It depends which one i walk into... most no
 
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Which church? No not a lot... talking to a female, is very important. .. I dont talk to the male pastors/ priests
Why or why not? I could understand a female not wanting to talk to a male about many female issues, but in spiritual issues why would it matter?
 
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