Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,039.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Who is colluding? If the priest hearing the confession are worth anything at all, they would refuse the absolution, and urge the sinner to report himself.
One of the clear problems of this proposition is that it is very clear that was not the general practice in at least one ecclesial community. Had this been the practice we may well not be having this conversation. There has been no real indication on the part of one ecclesial community of any intention to change. The legislation would still allow that to be the practice, and provides a real impetus for that change to happen.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Paidiske
Upvote 0

SashaMaria

He is risen! Alleluia!
Jun 23, 2018
168
159
East coast
✟193,564.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I think you have failed to recognize the significant change in thinking and practice in the Catholic Church in more recent times. I get the impression you are wanting to punish the CC for the sins of the past.

The law about obligatory reporting could have unintended consequences. The complainant in the Wilson case was technically guilty of not reporting to the police when he became an adult, as was anyone else he confided in.

My point still remains whether abolishing the seal of the confessional will help to reduce child sex abuse in society more than retaining the confidentiality. With the possibility of most pedophiles not confessing under the new law, we have lost one avenue of addressing the problem, so I doubt it.

What happens when it's the victims who confess?

Things are supposedly better here in the US but I don't know if I believe it . . .

There are scandals starting to emerge here in the US involving seminarians being abused by the hierarchy, including by a Cardinal. That's not the subject of this discussion but I no longer believe the Church can be reformed (and it breaks my heart to say that).
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,005
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,143.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
As a priest I'm sure (maybe I missed it on this thread) you encourage the abuse victim to properly report the incidents in question and offer information on how to report and seek medical/psychological assistance?

When I think on it, if you have an abuse victim in your confessional telling all to you it is a cry for help.

Yes, you do.

But - I can talk about this one in some limited way, as a real-life example. I had someone disclose to me that she had been abused by a priest. I did not know the priest, and I did not know if he was still in active ministry or had access to children.

I encouraged and supported her to report, but it took her over a year from her first disclosure to me, before she was ready to start an official reporting process.

Over a year.

As it turned out, the priest who had abused her had also abused others, and had already lost his licence and was facing charges. But imagine if he hadn't, and was continuing to abuse children as a priest for that year.

Being given permission to break the seal would mean a report could be made by me immediately after that first disclosure, and could potentially make a very big difference in outcome.
 
Upvote 0

Zoii

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
5,811
3,982
23
Australia
✟103,785.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
But I can. Besides, it really puts the ridiculousness of Australian law into perspective in my personal opinion.

View attachment 234396

...Because here, you're the one who wants to bind, and I'm the one who wants to loosen... I'm the liberal.
Before continuing to act so Smug; why dont you re-read Post 651 and then tell that person that the victim being abused and ignored by the church was being ridiculous as you suggest - because its those victims that have pushed for the law change - Catholic Practitioners . Your own people.

Why dont you tell the people of the Ireland, predominantly Catholic, that all those children that were "Disposed Off" by the Catholic Church were ridiculous as you suggest; because Ireland took Australian law one step further and not only imposed it on priests but on every single person aware of criminal activity. So by all means continue your smug ways and tell all those catholics they are ridiculous.
 
Upvote 0

Zoii

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
5,811
3,982
23
Australia
✟103,785.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Zoii, have you ever had to sign a non-disclosure form? Canon Law is a great big book, with all of the pages being non-disclosure forms. (That's not exactly true, but the seal of the Confessional is just between the penitent, Jesus, and the priest as a witness.) When the priest goes in to the Confessional, he KNOWS he is going to hear secrets, and he knows that he cannot reveal ANY of those secrets to anyone else.
Thats quite a good analogy Brendon. So from a legal perspective, confidentiality laws are under the laws of tort (civil law). Federal Criminal law supersedes that. You have no basis in law for that argument; you can by all means argue it by historical claims of religious rites, but the Human Rights Commissioner has already said that the rights for child protection over-rule the freedom to practice a religious rite.
 
Upvote 0

Zoii

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
5,811
3,982
23
Australia
✟103,785.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
A church should not be forced to abandon a well established belief for what are questionable outcomes.
Once again you are holding to the argument that an individual or group; religious or not; gets to judge a law and make an assessment if they believe it has likely efficacy, and then, if that individual or group doesn't believe it is robust or offends them in some way, they have the right to ignore the law.

But you're not arguing that for everyone are you - you're arguing it JUST for the catholic church. Because no other group has been so audacious to suggest such a thing.
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,039.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You have heard of religious freedom, right?
The Australian Constitution prohibits the Commonwealth Parliament from enacting legislation that would prohibit the free exercise of religion.
So what is your position on female genital mutilation, or the forced marriage of minors, both actions which impede the religious freedom of others?
 
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So what is your position on female genital mutilation, or the forced marriage of minors, both actions which impede the religious freedom of others?
Good questions. Religious freedom is a guiding principle in a democracy like ours and there should be no restrictions "that would prohibit the free exercise of religion" (as our Constitution expresses it) without very compelling reasons. There will sometimes be a debate about what is a "compelling reason" as we have seen in regard to ssm and now the confessional. Makes life interesting, don't you think?
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,137
20,169
US
✟1,440,830.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But didn't the Israelites / others was sometimes permitted to breaking the rules or laws if it achieved a more merciful outcome?

- David was allowed by God to kill Goliath to save Israel (Although there is a commandment not to kill)

- Rahab lied (deceived other people) to save the lives of Joshuah's spies.

- Jesus said you can break observance of Sabbath if you have to rescue a person or animals life from harm (there is a commandment to observe Sabbath)

And I believe observance of mercy as higher priority is not limited to such cases.

And especially, you can override canon laws in cases that could make a difference to the lives of young children -- for their protection for example.


.

Why would young children be the line?

Why not break the confidence of confession for everything society finds distasteful?
 
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Once again you are holding to the argument that an individual or group; religious or not; gets to judge a law and make an assessment if they believe it has likely efficacy, and then, if that individual or group doesn't believe it is robust or offends them in some way, they have the right to ignore the law.
But you're not arguing that for everyone are you - you're arguing it JUST for the catholic church. Because no other group has been so audacious to suggest such a thing.

I am not a Catholic nor an Anglican so I'm not trying to defend my church.

I am considering whether there is a compelling reason for us to "prohibit the free exercise of religion" in the case of the confessional, and I do not find one. In fact, I have argued that it could be detrimental to reducing the incidence of child sex abuse.

I also would argue the case that conservative Christian churches should not be compelled to co-operate or participate in same sex weddings along the lines of the arguments suggested by gay married man Dave Rubin: there is no compelling reason to do so.

I support religious exemptions for not voting (though I myself vote), refusing life saving blood transfusions for oneself (though I would have one), and a number of other religious practices. So, to answer your charge, no, I am not "arguing it just for the Catholic church".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,137
20,169
US
✟1,440,830.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree with Landon Caeli that the problem has not been the confessional practice of the Catholic Church, but the failure of the Catholic Church to bring due discipline to clearly inpenitent evildoers.

As the apostle Paul himself said, "Put away from yourselves the evildoer!" That would certainly include surrendering him to the courts of the king.

OTOH, the church should resist being used by the king for the king's purpose in any way.

This is something the Vatican should understand a bit more clearly than even other groups, inasmuch as it sees itself as a sovereign nation on earth. Either turn the lawbreakers over to the host nations or deal with them with due discipline in-house. But no nation expects to retain diplomatic relations when it allows its officials to break host nation laws with total impunity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip_B
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why would young children be the line?
Why not break the confidence of confession for everything society finds distasteful?
That would be the logical progression of breaking the seal of the confessional. If sexual abuse of children, then why not physical abuse of children ... until it gets to the point of being ridiculous ... why not children whose parents feed them too much junk food.
 
Upvote 0

Zoii

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
5,811
3,982
23
Australia
✟103,785.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
That would be the logical progression of breaking the seal of the confessional. If sexual abuse of children, then why not physical abuse of children ... until it gets to the point of being ridiculous ... why not children whose parents feed them too much junk food.
I know where you are going with it - but the discussion at hand isn't some sort of casual arrangement where the confessional cant be secret. The intent is to ensure it isn't a closet for the concealment of crime; specifically child sexual abuse - now this has happened, not because some cohort thought it a fabulous idea; but rather because the evidence gathered during the Royal Commission found this specific issue to be repository for gross and ongoing criminal child-sex activity. Its not the casual disintegration of religious privilege

Now make no mistake - the "shield laws " laws granting immunity from disclosing criminal activity to religious groups WAS a privilege. Its been revoked because of the avalanche of evidence that showed the Australian public that the privilege was grossly abused by religions.
 
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I know where you are going with it - but the discussion at hand isn't some sort of casual arrangement where the confessional cant be secret. The intent is to ensure it isn't a closet for the concealment of crime; specifically child sexual abuse - now this has happened, not because some cohort thought it a fabulous idea; but rather because the evidence gathered during the Royal Commission found this specific issue to be repository for gross and ongoing criminal child-sex activity. Its not the casual disintegration of religious privilege

Now make no mistake - the "shield laws " laws granting immunity from disclosing criminal activity to religious groups WAS a privilege. Its been revoked because of the avalanche of evidence that showed the Australian public that the privilege was grossly abused by religions.

I am quite aware of the reasons for introducing new laws but they are a response to historic cases of child abuse and do not relate to the significant changes that have taken place in churches regarding child sex abuse.

I agree with Christopher Prowse, Archbishop of Canberra and Goulburn:

“What sexual abuser would confess to a priest if they thought they would be reported? If the seal is removed, the remote possibility that they would confess and so could be counselled to report is gone,” Prowse wrote. “The Government threatens religious freedom by appointing itself an expert on religious practices and by attempting to change the sacrament of confession while delivering no improvement in the safety of children.”​
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,039.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I am quite aware of the reasons for introducing new laws but they are a response to historic cases of child abuse and do not relate to the significant changes that have taken place in churches regarding child sex abuse.

I agree with Christopher Prowse, Archbishop of Canberra and Goulburn:
“What sexual abuser would confess to a priest if they thought they would be reported? If the seal is removed, the remote possibility that they would confess and so could be counselled to report is gone,” Prowse wrote. “The Government threatens religious freedom by appointing itself an expert on religious practices and by attempting to change the sacrament of confession while delivering no improvement in the safety of children.”​
I think this argument is cogent, however it is not compelling. One of the reasons it is not compelling is the evidence before that Royal Commision that many many times, for whatever purpose, these evil deeds were the subject of confession (as many as 1500 times in the case of one offender) with seemingly little protection for the victims. Clearly the practice of confession meant something to the transgressors, and the Church in this way supported and helped the transgressors whilst being deaf to the cries of the victims, and denying them justice.

In the end the Church acts as the protector of the institution and its agents, rather than the protector of the vulnerable and the innocent.

I do not accept the argument that the Government has appointed itself an expert on religious practice, and neither has it sought to change the sacrament of confession, but rather to ask the Church to stand up for the victims.

The way and means thereto is; First, to examine your lives and conversations by the rule of God's commandments; and whereinsoever ye shall perceive yourselves to have offended, either by will, word, or deed, there to bewail your own sinfulness, and to confess yourselves to Almighty God, with full purpose of amendment of life. And if ye shall perceive your offences to be such as are not only against God, but also against your neighbours; then ye shall reconcile yourselves unto them; being ready to make restitution and satisfaction, according to the uttermost of your powers, for all injuries and wrongs done by you to any other; and being likewise ready to forgive others that have offended you, as you would have forgiveness of your offences at God's hand; for otherwise the receiving of the holy Communion doth nothing else but increase your damnation. Therefore if any of you be a blasphemer of God, an hinderer or slanderer of his Word, an adulterer, or be in malice, or envy, or in any other grievous crime, repent you of your sins, or else come not to that holy Table; lest, after the taking of that holy Sacrament, the devil enter into you, as he entered into Judas, and fill you full of all iniquities, and bring you to destruction both of body and soul.

And because it is requisite, that no man should come to the holy Communion, but with a full trust in God's mercy, and with a quiet conscience; therefore if there be any of you, who by this means cannot quiet his own conscience herein, but requireth further comfort or counsel, let him come to me, or to some other discreet and learned Minister of God's Word, and open his grief; that by the ministry of God's holy Word he may receive the benefit of absolution, together with ghostly counsel and advice, to the quieting of his conscience, and avoiding of all scruple and doubtfulness.

https://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-and-worship/worship-texts-and-resources/book-common-prayer/lords-supper-or-holy-communion
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,039.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Good questions. Religious freedom is a guiding principle in a democracy like ours and there should be no restrictions "that would prohibit the free exercise of religion" (as our Constitution expresses it) without very compelling reasons. There will sometimes be a debate about what is a "compelling reason" as we have seen in regard to ssm and now the confessional. Makes life interesting, don't you think?

116. Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...61E7742A1B2C42F95D4C05252&_z=z#chapter-05_116

The (proposed) legislative changes would of course be subject to being able to demonstrate that they did not violate the constitution. If the legislation banned people from confessing these transgressions in the sacrament of reconciliation that would in my view represent a violation of the constitution. To compel a minister of religion to act in the interests of protecting vulnerable children in our society does not seem to me to violate the free exercise of religion.

In general terms as a friend I am more than happy to keep confidences for that friendship, however there are boundaries beyond which that trust can not be seen to pass. If in the friendship I am made aware of an intention to commit a felony and I keep that confidence I am an accessory before the fact and I may be held criminally liable to the same extent as the principal.

The Church holds a privileged position in our society for a number of reasons, however I believe that there is a test of reasonable limits in terms of the level of privilege we can expect or demand. Were to free exercise of religion be an all compelling overarching principle never to be compromised, I could see an argument, however that is not how it is understood. We intervene in the case of the marriage of minors, female genital mutilation, blood transfusion of children, the free and uninhibited exercise of shariah law, to name but a few.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will guard the guards? As the Poet Juvenal once asked.

If you want to defend the absolute sanctity of the seal of the confessional, then I believe that the society in which we operate needs some credible reason to believe that we have some systems in place that will genuinely help to bring this dark period to an end.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you want to defend the absolute sanctity of the seal of the confessional, then I believe that the society in which we operate needs some credible reason to believe that we have some systems in place that will genuinely help to bring this dark period to an end.

That seem like a reasonable conclusion to me. Since 1997, the Catholic church has seen a significant change in its approach to this subject and many changes have been implemented in the last 20 years. The response to the abuse of the confessional is mainly related to historic events, going back in the latest court case 47 years.
 
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We are naive if we assume that no cleric is sexually abusing a minor right now.
I guess that was aimed at least in part at me. And no I am not that naïve. Whether abolishing the seal of the confessional for penitents is a good solution we should at least investigate. A knee jerk reaction can have unintended consequences.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zoii

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
5,811
3,982
23
Australia
✟103,785.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I am quite aware of the reasons for introducing new laws but they are a response to historic cases of child abuse and do not relate to the significant changes that have taken place in churches regarding child sex abuse.

I agree with Christopher Prowse, Archbishop of Canberra and Goulburn:

“What sexual abuser would confess to a priest if they thought they would be reported? If the seal is removed, the remote possibility that they would confess and so could be counselled to report is gone,” Prowse wrote. “The Government threatens religious freedom by appointing itself an expert on religious practices and by attempting to change the sacrament of confession while delivering no improvement in the safety of children.”​
Yes I read Christopher's and the Archbishop of Hobart's response.
I also read the blogs on a Catholic website that followed those comments and I've also read the research into the conduct of the confessional that has led us to this place:

Fr. Frank are you saying that if a young child confesses sexual abuse you would do nothing about it? I know of a child who reported regular abuse to a priest because it felt safe to do that in private, knowing that the perpetrator would not find out, it went on for years. Surely in this situation, the priest would be compelled by God's law re the sanctity of a child rather than church ethics around the seal of confession.
Trish Martin | 05 December

It was confirmed that indeed the Catholic Church would not reveal the child's abuse. The Confessional Seal was to keep all words hidden.
 
Upvote 0