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Catholic Bishops Declare.......

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by g_1933, Sep 12, 2002.

  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    And it further states that you have no idea who is saved, and who isn't.
     
  2. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Light Bearer:

    The Bible tells YOU PERSONALLY how to gain salvation, but tells you not to judge the salvation of others.

    And the first part of the Bible, the Old Testament, is a history of God's Chosen People

    Christians SHARE in the heritage of God's Chosen People through Jesus Christ. The New Covenant opened up that status to all, Jew, Gentile, man, woman, slave, free.

    God doesn't break his promises. And He promised the Jews that they would be His Chosen People.

    As for me, I'm going to leave the judgment up to God. That's His job, and I don't want it!


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  3. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    Elaborate.
     
  4. Knight

    Knight Knight of the Cross

    +111
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Then we differ on this. I do not, for one second, doubt that I am saved through Christ.

    Christ said: "It is Finished" I place my faith and trust in Him in repentance. I am not near perfect but I am justified in Christ and and sanctified by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    The Bible is clear on the requirements and assurences of salvation.
     
  5. Chloe

    Chloe The whole Bible is the Whole Word of God

    129
    +0
    No one can be saved apart from Christ.  Salvation through Christ was first for the Jew and then the Gentile.  God has said that no one is good, no one is righteous, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
     
  6. g_1933

    g_1933 New Member

    88
    +0
    Knight and Chloe, Amen
     
  7. Chloe

    Chloe The whole Bible is the Whole Word of God

    129
    +0
    Although the Jews are God's chosen people, they are not automatically saved, which is why Jesus came to the Jews, for their salvation first and then the Gentiles.  

    I do agree though that we ought not to make judgments about someone's salvation, but if someone rejects Christ, they will not be saved, because His sacrifice was the only one that has the ability to remove our sins. 
     
  8. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    A covenant which they thenselves broke and which God terminated and replaced with a new and better covenant and a new Israel of God.

    So Jews are no longer God's people and havn't been for the last 2,000 years.
     
  9. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
    Here's a novel concept:

    EVERYONE who follows Christ's teachings and the examples he showed us through his life's actions is a Christian.
     
  10. Chloe

    Chloe The whole Bible is the Whole Word of God

    129
    +0
     

    Umm, no.  According to Paul, blindness has happened in part to the Jew, until the fulness of the gentiles be come in.  God is not through with Israel.  Ezekiel 38 and 39 is a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled and shows that God is not through with them. 
     
  11. g_1933

    g_1933 New Member

    88
    +0
    Have to disagree there, only those who accept Christ ar savior are truly Christians
     
  12. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    The earliest tradition of the Church was to separate the evangelistic efforts, some going to the Jew and others to the Gentile. Although we are all one in Christ what was easy for the Gentiles was seen as a stumbling block to the Jew. So the ministry efforts were divided. However, God did send Peter to the Jews as is clearly seen in Galatians. And God is not finished with the Jew, that is clear. The decision is confusing to me, I would like to have a better understanding.

    Gal 2:8 For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
     
  13. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    Oh, the Jews disobeyed God repeatedly, and He punished them.

    But there is nothing that says the Covenant was "breakable." "I will be your God, and you will be My people."

    The NEW Covenant was to enable the Gentiles to share in the original Covenant.

    Again, God spoke to Abraham and made this Covenant. I don't recall reading ANYWHERE that God spoke to anyone else and said, "Okay, Guys, it's over. Forget it."

    If this were true, then WHY did the Jews survive the Nazi Holocaust? Why did they manage, under extreme duress, to form again the nation of Israel?

    Like I said, I'm not qualified to judge. Neither is anyone else on this board. That's God's job, and the position is filled.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  14. g_1933

    g_1933 New Member

    88
    +0
    Israel is God's chosen people, nation. I did not think that was in question. The point is that God's people or not, no one is saved and going to heaven unless they know Jesus Christ.
     
  15. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    Well, there's obviously the confusion from first saying that the Jews are God's Chosen People, and then turning around and saying they WON'T see Heaven because they haven't accepted Jesus. Why would God condemn His very own Chosen People.

    That's why I don't pass judgment, and I don't feel anyone else can, either. God has obviously preserved the Jews throughout the ages for a reason. And I'll let Him handle it.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  16. Knight

    Knight Knight of the Cross

    +111
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    If the Jews do not need Christ why was His ministry directed at them?
     
  17. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +148
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Libertarian

    1st John 5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
     
  18. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    Okay, here's the way I figure it. Mind you, this is something cooked up in the recesses of my brain, it's MY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT, nothing sanctioned or approved by the Catholic Church, and if the Church agrees with what I've said, it's just a happy coincidence.

    (whew! the disclaimer wore me out!)

    Before the Resurrection of Jesus, there were thousands of years' worth of devout Jews, who died in the knowledge of being God's Chosen People.

    What happened to them?

    Now, the Church teaches that they weren't in Heaven, and they weren't in Hell. Obviously, they were not on earth. It is the teaching of the Church that after Jesus died, before He rose from the dead, He "visited" this place and ministered to these dead Chosen People.

    The Jews who remained Jews after the formation of the Christian Church still believed they were God's Chosen People. Some heard the story of Jesus, converted, and became Christian. Some remained Jews. We still have the Jewish people with us, and I maintain that because they still have suffered in the 2000 years since Christ, suffered yet SURVIVED, they still have the Hand of God upon them.

    Talk to a Jew. SSV is one who posts here regularly, and he's very informative! We've had some wonderful exchanges with him. He has explained that to a JEW who is well-read in their Scriptures, Jesus did NOT fulfill the prophecies to be the Messiah. To a Jew, the Jews are still awaiting for their Messiah.

    (and I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether or not the prophecies have been fulfilled. I'm a Christian, so of course I believe they have.)

    MY PERSONAL belief is that the Messiah the Jews are waiting for will be Jesus, at His Second Coming. At that time, all the confusion, the misunderstandings, the arguments, all of that will pass away, and we ALL will celebrate the Messiah, together: Jews, as God's Chosen People, through the Old Covenant, and Christians, as the "adopted" Chosen People, through the New Covenant.

    For ALL the Jews who have died, waiting for their Messiah, I see that they could be in that same place where the OTHER Jews met Jesus, after His death.

    This works for me.

    Because I don't believe a merciful, just, loving God would condemn to Hell for all eternity, to be consumed in the endless fire, any Jew who was stripped of everything, shoved into a Nazi gas chamber, harvested of hair and gold and jewelry, and then burned like garbage in the crematoria.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  19. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    "The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

    RO 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins."

    RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
     
  20. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    When in doubt, go straight to the horse's mouth. The following comes from the interfaith dialouge portion of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops webite.

    What the Bishops statement said was that converting Jews was impossible as they already have faith in the one true God, and in fact have a covenant with Him. What is possible, though, is a dialouge with them where they can see find the fulfillment of their Covenant in the New Covenant which God made with all people. Thus, the "the Catholic Church must always evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God's kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews," while recognizing that God is not through with the Jewish community, and will not be until the end of days. The Old Covenant has not been cancelled, it has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Our job is not to convert Jews, but to witness to that fulfillment while respecting it as an outflow of the Old. As Paul has said:

    Glory to God Forever!

    Neal
     
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