Catholic Argument Supporting Images in Church

jinc1019

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One of the biggest arguments that I'm having trouble responding to in support of using images in the Church (one that Lutherans make all the time) is that the Temple included many statues, images, etc. How can I reply to this from the Reformed perspective?

I tried responding by saying that those images which God commands are obviously permissible, but some of them pointed out that many graven images were not commanded but we don't see God fighting against them. For instance, Solomon appears to have made many graven images in the Temple that God never denounces.

Thoughts on these points?
 

BryanW92

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Where is your evidence that the temple contained many images and statues?

But, here is the official Reformed perspective:

Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature: Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense: Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.

Question 110: What are the reasons annexed to the second commandment, the more to enforce it?

Answer: The reasons annexed to the second commandment, the more to enforce it, contained in these words, For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments; are, besides God's sovereignty over us, and propriety in us, his fervent zeal for his own worship, and his revengeful indignation against all false worship, as being a spiritual whoredom; accounting the breakers of this commandment such as hate him, and threatening to punish them unto divers generations; and esteeming the observers of it such as love him and keep his commandments, and promising mercy to them unto many generations.
 
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jinc1019

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Where is your evidence that the temple contained many images and statues?

But, here is the official Reformed perspective:

Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature: Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense: Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.

Question 110: What are the reasons annexed to the second commandment, the more to enforce it?

Answer: The reasons annexed to the second commandment, the more to enforce it, contained in these words, For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments; are, besides God's sovereignty over us, and propriety in us, his fervent zeal for his own worship, and his revengeful indignation against all false worship, as being a spiritual whoredom; accounting the breakers of this commandment such as hate him, and threatening to punish them unto divers generations; and esteeming the observers of it such as love him and keep his commandments, and promising mercy to them unto many generations.

I'm well aware of the Reformed position. My question relates specifically to the statues in the Temple, as well as the other pictures, etc. Here are some relevant passages of scripture (the text is from an article, but the scripture is cited in the passage and I confirmed it. Additionally, Martin Luther references these same passages in his writings (if I remember correctly):

Continuing in the Old Testament, the inner sanctuary of the Temple contained two large statues of angels according to 1 Kings 6:23-28. In the following verses, Solomon also had the walls of the Temple decorated with carved images of angels, palm trees and flowers (1 Kings 6:29ff).
 
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AMR

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There is the need to connect the prohibition of "graven" images with the purpose: no bowing down to or serving.

Also note that the word used for "graven image" in Ex.20:4 is consistently used for a particular kind of carving: an idol. (Lev. 26:1)

The word used for "image" in Genesis 1:16 and similar passages is different.
The word used for "likeness" in Gen. 1:26 is not the same word used in Exodus 20:4.
The word used for "likeness" can be used positively in some contexts, as in Numbers 12:8.

We should not be arguing along the lines that there were some few "authorized" images, while also arguing every other possibility was prohibited. Rather, we should argue the second commandment's essence is that the one, true God (see first commandment) is only to be worshiped in His prescribed manner. It is from the first commandment that false worship of all other gods as well as these gods themselves are dispensed with. There is no need to then redundantly state in the first commandment that these idols are forbidden as well. It is redundant because the second commandment assumes the first commandment is being fulfilled, thus the second commandment holds the making of any image for worship as making an image of God.

The second commandment is not a prohibition against any images at all. After all, as you have noted, God commanded some representations of things in heaven (cherubim) and on earth in the Tabernacle.

Of course Rome and Constantinople argue they are but only doing veneration, latria, respect, service with these images--all clever tactics to sneak in religious devotion for something not divine.

We are prohibited from making idols of God, and to use these images to worship God. Now if we are not to do this with images of Almighty God, are we not to offer much, much, less devotion to any other thing, e.g., religious icons? This is the logic used in the second commandment. Scripture attests to the error of these sort of "devotional aids" by offering not a single example in support of Rome and Constantinople.
 
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VelocityTH

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In my opinion (which can be wrong, by the way), it is at least "tolerable" to craft/paint/draw images or statues with an educational or artistic goal; but it begins to cross the line when we consider those things "miracle-performing items" or "keys to salvation".
-
Again, I could be wrong.
 
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jinc1019

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There is the need to connect the prohibition of "graven" images with the purpose: no bowing down to or serving.

Also note that the word used for "graven image" in Ex.20:4 is consistently used for a particular kind of carving: an idol. (Lev. 26:1)

The word used for "image" in Genesis 1:16 and similar passages is different.
The word used for "likeness" in Gen. 1:26 is not the same word used in Exodus 20:4.
The word used for "likeness" can be used positively in some contexts, as in Numbers 12:8.

We should not be arguing along the lines that there were some few "authorized" images, while also arguing every other possibility was prohibited. Rather, we should argue the second commandment's essence is that the one, true God (see first commandment) is only to be worshiped in His prescribed manner. It is from the first commandment that false worship of all other gods as well as these gods themselves are dispensed with. There is no need to then redundantly state in the first commandment that these idols are forbidden as well. It is redundant because the second commandment assumes the first commandment is being fulfilled, thus the second commandment holds the making of any image for worship as making an image of God.

The second commandment is not a prohibition against any images at all. After all, as you have noted, God commanded some representations of things in heaven (cherubim) and on earth in the Tabernacle.

Of course Rome and Constantinople argue they are but only doing veneration, latria, respect, service with these images--all clever tactics to sneak in religious devotion for something not divine.

We are prohibited from making idols of God, and to use these images to worship God. Now if we are not to do this with images of Almighty God, are we not to offer much, much, less devotion to any other thing, e.g., religious icons? This is the logic used in the second commandment. Scripture attests to the error of these sort of "devotional aids" by offering not a single example in support of Rome and Constantinople.

Great response. Thanks for this.
 
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jinc1019

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In my opinion (which can be wrong, by the way), it is at least "tolerable" to craft/paint/draw images or statues with an educational or artistic goal; but it begins to cross the line when we consider those things "miracle-performing items" or "keys to salvation".
-
Again, I could be wrong.

Thanks for the contribution!
 
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jinc1019

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It's my understanding that the Lutherans don't venerate or pray to images, they just use them to decorate their churches.

They don't "venerate" images no...But my understanding is that they do bow to the crucifix in certain situations (I was told this by a Lutheran, but perhaps he/she was mistaken!)
 
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EvangelCatholic

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They don't "venerate" images no...But my understanding is that they do bow to the crucifix in certain situations (I was told this by a Lutheran, but perhaps he/she was mistaken!)

When the processional cross passes many will bow their heads during the opening hymn. We bow to the altar before entering the pew and at holy Communion. After the Gospel is read the Bible/ Lectionary is elevated above the pastor's head; people bow or cross themselves especially if the bishop is present. The Bible to taken over to the bishop who raises it up and makes the sign of the cross.

All of this adoration is to Christ, our Lord.

The Liturgy of Good Friday includes reverences of the cross/ crucifix by bowing to, kissing, touching. This is done to a relatively large cross.
 

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Light of the East

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Of course Rome and Constantinople argue they are but only doing veneration, latria, respect, service with these images--all clever tactics to sneak in religious devotion for something not divine.

I always find it interesting that those who are not Catholic or Orthodox will tell us what we believe, what our motives are, and what we are doing.
 
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Light of the East

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Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;

Which is a restatement of Hebrews 8:5 and 9:23-24. I find it ironic to read this statement made by men who rejected the faith given the world by Christ Jesus through the Apostles and instead establishing their own doctrines some 1500 years later.

tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature:

which, of course, is not what either the Orthodox or Catholic faiths do.

Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it,

As in denying 15 centuries of Christian teaching that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ? As in adding doctrines that had not been taught for those 15 centuries, such as "sola fide" and "sola scriptura." As in denying the reality of Christ's faithfulness in defending the His Bride, the Church, against the gates of hell?

whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense:

The heretic Arias, defended his heresy from Scripture alone. The bishops of the Council of Nicea brought up the fact that in the three centuries before, it had never been the Tradition of the Church to deny the Trinity or the deity of Christ.

Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
 
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AMR

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I find it ironic to read this statement made by men who rejected the faith given the world by Christ Jesus through the Apostles and instead establishing their own doctrines some 1500 years later.
You are welcome to your opinion, but not permitted to take us to task as this is a safe-haven forum for Presbyterians. Please review this:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ovenantal-creedal-presbyterian-forum.7423440/

Feel free to debate the matter in forums where debate is permitted.
 
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Light of the East

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JM

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Just an observation by an observer.

I'm more Presby than most Presbyterians! lol Check out the Baptist Confession of Faith compared with the Presbyterian Confession.

When asked, "do you think they (icons and images) can be helpful for the faithful to enter into more pious prayer?"

My answer:

The only aspiration for the Christian should be to exalt the Gospel, the free grace of God in salvation and declare this salvation through Jesus Christ alone. This was the practice of the early church before the so-called ‘Triumph of Orthodoxy.’ To enter into ‘more pious prayer’ we need to recognize our sinfulness and hopelessness for it is here that we experience God’s forgiveness and mercy. When we understand our helplessness in all our trials and earthly trouble we find Jesus Christ sweet, altogether lovely and our prayer is most pious (devout, dutiful, etc).

The better question is why not allow the revealed word of God to direct our worship? Baptists believe the Bible should dictate how Christians are to worship. When we deviate from scripture we invite superstition and idolatry into our church practices. Sacred and profane history has taught us that man manufactures idols out of the desires of his heart all of the time. The righteous man will make an idol of his righteousness and the religionist crafts an idol of his ceremony. To be pious and devout requires us to look to Christ and Him alone for all things.

Yours in the Lord
 
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Light of the East

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I'm more Presby than most Presbyterians! lol Check out the Baptist Confession of Faith compared with the Presbyterian Confession.

When asked, "do you think they (icons and images) can be helpful for the faithful to enter into more pious prayer?"

My answer:

The only aspiration for the Christian should be to exalt the Gospel, the free grace of God in salvation and declare this salvation through Jesus Christ alone. This was the practice of the early church before the so-called ‘Triumph of Orthodoxy.’ To enter into ‘more pious prayer’ we need to recognize our sinfulness and hopelessness for it is here that we experience God’s forgiveness and mercy. When we understand our helplessness in all our trials and earthly trouble we find Jesus Christ sweet, altogether lovely and our prayer is most pious (devout, dutiful, etc).

The better question is why not allow the revealed word of God to direct our worship? Baptists believe the Bible should dictate how Christians are to worship. When we deviate from scripture we invite superstition and idolatry into our church practices. Sacred and profane history has taught us that man manufactures idols out of the desires of his heart all of the time. The righteous man will make an idol of his righteousness and the religionist crafts an idol of his ceremony. To be pious and devout requires us to look to Christ and Him alone for all things.

Yours in the Lord

http://www.roca.org/OA/19/19e.htm
 
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