Castle Church Brewing (Lutheran)

tampasteve

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I found out about this place a few months ago, it is a brewery and church in Orlando, FL. Has anyone had a chance to go over there? I have heard a few interviews with the guys and they seem like really nice and sincere.

Basically this is a brewery that is affiliated with the ELCA. They brew some pretty good sounding beers, one is supposedly a "historically accurate synthesis of wheat and pale malts, noble hops, and blend of regional yeasts marries character with drink ability, a living replica of the beer that Martin Luther liked to drink with his friends and family." They also have a church service on Sunday mornings.

Are there any similar places in the USA or Canada?
 
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JackRT

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Monasteries have a long reputation as brewers and vintners. But I have not heard of such an affiliation Canada. However there are two congregations in nearby Waterloo, Ontario which have jointly built and are sharing a place of worship. The two are Westminster United Church and Temple Shalom. If this can happen, there is real hope for a healing between Christian and Jew.
 
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tampasteve

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Seriously?

A beer prophet?

I didn't know churches actually had breweries.

Definitely not the same thing as you outlined in your "beer prophet" thread. The Western Church has a long tradition of brewing beer and making wine, as well as distilling in monasteries - and the Lutheran tradition has always included beer as a conversation starter.
 
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FireDragon76

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I found out about this place a few months ago, it is a brewery and church in Orlando, FL. Has anyone had a chance to go over there? I have heard a few interviews with the guys and they seem like really nice and sincere.

Basically this is a brewery that is affiliated with the ELCA. They brew some pretty good sounding beers, one is supposedly a "historically accurate synthesis of wheat and pale malts, noble hops, and blend of regional yeasts marries character with drink ability, a living replica of the beer that Martin Luther liked to drink with his friends and family." They also have a church service on Sunday mornings.

Are there any similar places in the USA or Canada?

Pastor was talking about this some years ago, or at least it sounds like this. He does not approve really. Pastor's concern is that it could amount to enticements, when he thinks people should go to church for sincere reasons. Some Evangelicals in the US don't care about making "rice Christians", but it's something we should be concerned about.

One thing that has struck me about Pastor Rob Cosmas is his sense of integrity. He's never tried to manipulate me or offer me enticements when I was an inquirer. The only thing he offered me is Christian friendship and the Gospel. I really respect that. Grace is not cheapjack wares at rock-bottom prices. So I can understand Pastor's concern.

What was your experience like, if you have any?
 
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tampasteve

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Pastor was talking about this some years ago, or at least it sounds like this. He does not approve really. Pastor's concern is that it could amount to enticements, when he thinks people should go to church for sincere reasons. Some Evangelicals in the US don't care about making "rice Christians", but it's something we should be concerned about.

One thing that has struck me about Pastor Rob Cosmas is his sense of integrity. He's never tried to manipulate me or offer me enticements when I was an inquirer. The only thing he offered me is Christian friendship and the Gospel. I really respect that. Grace is not cheapjack wares at rock-bottom prices. So I can understand Pastor's concern.

What was your experience like, if you have any?

I think it is a pretty good outreach opportunity, I have no problem with an official affiliation with a Lutheran church, and I like the Pub Theology study idea that some churches are doing, but I am not sure I am 100% behind a church in the pub. I have not been here yet, but I will have to make the drive over at some point, but depending on traffic it can be a couple of hours from here.
 
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FireDragon76

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I think we should be encouraging individual Lutherans to talk about our faith more, to not be embarrassed about it or have a false modesty. That's the deeper problem in our church, we've conformed to an American ideal of what is polite conversation. Many in the ELCA just act like evangelism and outreach is the pastor's job, or the church's councils job. We have a dismissal that says "Go forth and proclaim the Good News", but I'm not sure people are actually taking that all that seriously.

What we should not do, is ape the rest of the American evangelical culture, because they really have no sense of ethics in this area.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think we should be encouraging individual Lutherans to talk about our faith more, to not be embarrassed about it or have a false modesty. That's the deeper problem in our church, we've conformed to an American ideal of what is polite conversation. Many in the ELCA just act like evangelism and outreach is the pastor's job, or the church's councils job. We have a dismissal that says "Go forth and proclaim the Good News", but I'm not sure people are actually taking that all that seriously.

What we should not do, is ape the rest of the American evangelical culture, because they really have no sense of ethics in this area.

To an extent my own experiences with American Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism are going to color some of my thought here; namely that having grown up in that tradition I can fully understand the wariness that comes with the word "evangelism". So I can understand the position you are coming from here, that we shouldn't let ourselves be so "polite" that we never talk about the Gospel; but there is, from the other direction, the matter that we don't ever let ourselves confuse evangelism with trying to make converts; these are not the same thing, and must never be treated as though they are the same.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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It's funny you brought this church-pub up because my mom mentioned this yesterday as she drove us to the vesper's service at church. She has a friend that goes there. She didn't talk about many details.

Personally, it makes me die a little inside just to think about, and I'm shocked anybody in the ELCA thought this was a good way to do church. It sounds like the cheap and sleazy stuff that some evangelicals engage in, in the name of proselytism. Everything is prostituted in the name of getting you to make that decision they want to hear. I'm open to seeing another perspectives, though.
 
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tampasteve

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It's funny you brought this church-pub up because my mom mentioned this yesterday as she drove us to the vesper's service at church. She has a friend that goes there. She didn't talk about many details.

Personally, it makes me die a little inside just to think about, and I'm shocked anybody in the ELCA thought this was a good way to do church. It sounds like the cheap and sleazy stuff that some evangelicals engage in, in the name of proselytism. Everything is prostituted in the name of getting you to make that decision they want to hear. I'm open to seeing another perspectives, though.

I think you might be looking too deeply into it, or at least the overall project. So far as I can tell the church side of it is not pushing to "make that decision" like a typical non-denom church would. While I have not been to the service, and likely will never because of the distance, I would be shocked if they had a sermon like that or altar call; it is still Lutheran. That said, I would prefer they did this enterprise without the actual church service, I think having an affiliation with the church body would be enough to make interest.
 
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FireDragon76

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I think you might be looking too deeply into it, or at least the overall project. So far as I can tell the church side of it is not pushing to "make that decision" like a typical non-denom church would. While I have not been to the service, and likely will never because of the distance, I would be shocked if they had a sermon like that or altar call; it is still Lutheran. That said, I would prefer they did this enterprise without the actual church service, I think having an affiliation with the church body would be enough to make interest.

I think the lack of explicit altar call bothers me less than what it is insinuating about the Gospel. The old way of doing church has some dignity to it, at least, even if we aren't exactly Episcopalians or Anglicans.

I think somebody may have bought into the low ecclessiology of some in the missional wing of evangelicalism, that's what bothers me. And many of these folks don't preach a particularly radical message, either, it's the same old conservative evangelical stuff in a hipster package. Entice them in with coffee and then give them "old time religion" of inwardness and self-consciousness, the bread and butter of pietism.

Whereas if we take a a place like House for All Sinners and Saints in Denver, Colorado - it meets in a building that used to be a Reformed synagogue and at least follows the liturgy, even if their preaching is contextualized for people that tend to be unchurched, they at least make a sincere effort to do the same sorts of things Christians have always done.
 
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tampasteve

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I can't disagree with that, one of the things that draws me to the Lutheran church, and the ELCA in particular is the higher churchmanship, I do not care for modern services and low church masses.
 
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Newtheran

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I found out about this place a few months ago, it is a brewery and church in Orlando, FL. Has anyone had a chance to go over there? I have heard a few interviews with the guys and they seem like really nice and sincere.

Basically this is a brewery that is affiliated with the ELCA. They brew some pretty good sounding beers, one is supposedly a "historically accurate synthesis of wheat and pale malts, noble hops, and blend of regional yeasts marries character with drink ability, a living replica of the beer that Martin Luther liked to drink with his friends and family." They also have a church service on Sunday mornings.

Are there any similar places in the USA or Canada?

I suppose it's a nice way to get a 501c3 tax exemption for your microbrewery
 
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tampasteve

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I suppose it's a nice way to get a 501c3 tax exemption for your microbrewery

Yes, I suppose that is part of it. But I have heard these guys speak on the subject, and I think they are genuine in trying to use this for outreach and to further the reach of the ELCA Lutheran church in particular and Christ in general.

Personally I really find the historically accurateness of their beers to be fascinating and a good thing to spread knowledge of Lutheran history.
 
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FireDragon76

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Yes, I suppose that is part of it. But I have heard these guys speak on the subject, and I think they are genuine in trying to use this for outreach and to further the reach of the ELCA Lutheran church in particular and Christ in general.

Personally I really find the historically accurateness of their beers to be fascinating and a good thing to spread knowledge of Lutheran history.

I'd like to learn more about this. On first glace, it sounds like the sort of inducement proselytism that is widely recognized as unethical. People should go to churches and religious organizations for spiritual, not worldly, reasons. But on the other hand, they may simply also be trying to prove a point and to show people a different way to be a Christian, and that would be more acceptable. But I suspect that's not the case.

I am starting to learn how much American Evangelicalism seems to impact the ELCA, so this potential ethical blindness really would not surprise me as much as it would in the past. I listened to some sermons from a local ELCA congregation (not the one I go to) out of curiosity. They don't follow the common lectionary and their preaching wasn't all that Lutheran, it seemed to be more like what I heard in Methodist churches. And we had a bishop's assistance preach a few weeks ago and his sermon was much the same.
 
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mkgal1

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People should go to churches and religious organizations for spiritual, not worldly, reasons.
But some people have been hurt in organized churches and are a bit leery of entering them again - but they still desire a spiritual connection to God and to others (and would appreciate discussing spiritual matters). I think this is the idea behind it (from what I've read). Didn't Jesus meet people where they were?
 
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FireDragon76

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But some people have been hurt in organized churches and are a bit leery of entering them again - but they still desire a spiritual connection to God and to others (and would appreciate discussing spiritual matters). I think this is the idea behind it (from what I've read). Didn't Jesus meet people where they were?

This alienates me from the Church. Non-spiritual inducements to attract people to church are unethical: this is the consensus of Catholic and mainline Protestants over the years.

Comparing the Church to Jesus is highly problematic from a Lutheran standpoint. The Church is not sinless or impeccable, unlike Jesus. The Church saves no one, only God does that.
 
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Newtheran

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But some people have been hurt in organized churches and are a bit leery of entering them again - but they still desire a spiritual connection to God and to others (and would appreciate discussing spiritual matters). I think this is the idea behind it (from what I've read). Didn't Jesus meet people where they were?

"16 “But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, 17 and saying:

‘We played the flute for you,
And you did not dance;
We mourned to you,
And you did not lament.’

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”

(Matthew 11)

"In his second epistle, Peter laments those who distort the word of God making note that, “untaught and unstable people twist [it] to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16) As it was in Peter’s day, so it is in ours as the “untaught and unstable” have increased and the remnant “Berean” has become something of a novelty. We hear often that Jesus was a “friend of tax collectors and sinners.” Error is proliferated by mangling an element of truth. Pawning of an absolute lie is quite difficult, but subtly twisting the truth is precisely the business of the devil — “It is written….,” he said. Yes, but we must always be prepared with, “It is written AGAIN…” that we might withstand his wiles. Was Jesus really a “friend” of tax collectors and sinners?

As our above text shows, it is plainly stated that Jesus is a friend of tax collectors and sinners, but lest we cast ourselves off the pinnacle of the temple, as it were, in our simple-mindedness, let us examine this passage more closely. Two chapters previous to this, in Matthew 9, Jesus calls Matthew, a tax collector, to follow Him. Later on, Jesus and His disciples are eating in a home (presumably Matthew’s) and many sinners and tax collectors came and sat down with them. The pharisees, always lying in wait, objected immediately and asked why he would eat with such people. Jesus says to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick…… For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Matthew 9:12-13) So then, Jesus acknowledges that they were “sick”, that they were “sinners” and they were in need of “repentance”. These were his reasons for allowing them in with Him, namely for evangelism.

Now, let’s return to Matthew 11. After hearing of John the Baptist’s imprisonment, Jesus lauds John to the multitudes even calling him, “…more than a prophet.” (Matthew 11:9) Jesus notes that “they” were slanderers of John and likewise slanderers of Himself. “They” was immediately referencing “this generation” (Matthew 11:16), but it stands to reason that “they” were exemplified by the religious hypocrites; the pharisees and scribes as we see them doing precisely this only two chapters prior. Jesus says that “THEY” say John has a demon, and “THEY” say the Son of Man is a “glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.” THEY said this about Jesus but He never said this. Those who claim that Jesus was a friend of tax collectors and sinners are leveling the same false accusation that the pharisees leveled against Jesus, only usually for a different motive. Notice the other false accusations in the same line-up:

1. John has a demon
2. Jesus is a glutton
3. Jesus is a winebibber (a drunk)
4. Jesus is a friend of sinners and tax collectors

If Jesus was truly a “friend” of tax collectors and sinners as was claimed by His enemies, then the other accusations must also be true as we cannot arbitrarily separate them. When one validates the claim that Jesus was a “friend” of sinners (in the sense that they were implying), they unwittingly validate the claim that He was also a winebibber and that John the Baptist had a demon. God forbid!"

Was Jesus Really A "Friend" Of Sinners? | Servus Christi

So who then were Jesus' friends? He goes on to tell us in John 15:14:
“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.”

Hope that helps. There is a lot of falsehood in contemporary cultural Christianity. You've just stumbled across one of them.
 
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