Carved Icons?

[Chesterton]

I'd never heard of this. The fellow who wrote this article is Orthodox, and claims carved icons are "legitimate" icons and were common in the early Church. Is that right?

But when I saw this, I was reminded that at the monastery near me, they have an iconostasis which, if I'm recalling correctly, doesn't have icons on it, but rather is more like one giant icon itself. It's a huge piece of woodwork with very intricate carving done all over it. They say it took years to create. Wish I could share a pic, because it's really magnificent to see. So maybe the guy's right?

 

[Hermit76]

I've never heard any argument against them.

 

[Psalm 27]

Exodus 20:1-6

 

[ArmyMatt]

Exodus 20:1-6

Exodus 25:18-20

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'd never heard of this. The fellow who wrote this article is Orthodox, and claims carved icons are "legitimate" icons and were common in the early Church. Is that right?

But when I saw this, I was reminded that at the monastery near me, they have an iconostasis which, if I'm recalling correctly, doesn't have icons on it, but rather is more like one giant icon itself. It's a huge piece of woodwork with very intricate carving done all over it. They say it took years to create. Wish I could share a pic, because it's really magnificent to see. So maybe the guy's right?

yes, at St Tikhon's Monastery Museum you can see an ancient lampada with the Cross carved into it.

and I know of a nun who makes amazing carvings.

 

[Chesterton]

yes, at St Tikhon's Monastery Museum you can see an ancient lampada with the Cross carved into it.

and I know of a nun who makes amazing carvings.

But I guess my question is, are they the same type of thing as a written icon, or are they just artistic pieces?

Also, what is a lampada? I DuckDuckGo'ed it, but I'm still not sure, lol.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

As far as I know, bas relief is fine. I think the big objection is statuary which would have been found in pagan temples.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But I guess my question is, are they the same type of thing as a written icon, or are they just artistic pieces?

Also, what is a lampada? I DuckDuckGo'ed it, but I'm still not sure, lol.

I dunno if it's the same as an icon.

and a lampada is an oil lamp

 

[prodromos]

Exodus 20:1-6

1 Kings 6

 

[nutroll]

Exodus 20:1-6

Deuteronomy 4:15 explains why they weren't to make images. They hadn't seen any form. Once God is seen in the flesh, that rule doesn't apply to His image...

 

[nutroll]

As for carved images, there are many examples of carved icons from antiquity, in many different materials. We shouldn't even be so bold as to say that statues are forbidden since one of the most ancient images the Church referred to in defending the use of images was a statue of Christ with the woman with an issue of blood in Caesarea Philippi which was miraculous. Very often the hand crosses that we venerate are cast metal and not painted. I would say the standard should be is this a faithful image of Christ/the Theotokos/a saint? If so, venerate it.

 

[SalemsConcordance]

Exodus 20:1-6

Deuteronomy 4:16-18
...form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast, likeness of any winged bird,
I hope you are amish!

 

[Psalm 27]

Acts 17:
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them.

Jesus said;
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[ArmyMatt]

Acts 17:
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them.

Jesus said;
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

icons or carvings are not worshipped, unless you wanna argue that the Cherubim in the Tabernacle and Temple were worshipped.

we also never said the Divine Nature was shaped by art or man's devising.

 

[SalemsConcordance]

I was thinking of potentially getting a nice carved icon from Jonathan Pageau some day.
Pageau Carvings

Psalm 27, the bible took until 270AD for the books to be decreed, and was ratified in 680AD. How were people worshiping before hand? Acts shows all things related to the early church, including Liturgical worship, which continues from the Tabernacle worship of the old Hebrews.

Have you ever wondered why St Paul still went to the church founded by Christ and the Apostles? He spoke to God Himself, Christ the Lord, and did not establish his own church and denomination? Or the many churches which the Apostles "heard of great things being done", they still went to lay their hands upon them to consecrate them into His One church.

I pray you read this:

Sola Scriptura
Since my conversion from Evangelical Protestantism to the Orthodox Faith, I have noted a general amazement among many of those who have been raised Orthodox that a Protestant could be converted.

ll Protestant groups (with some minor qualifications) believe that their group has rightly understood the Bible, and though they all disagree as to what the Bible says, they generally do agree on how one is to interpret the Bible — on your own! — apart from Church Tradition. If one can come to understand this belief, why it is wrong, and how one is rightly to approach the Scriptures, then any Protestant of any stripe may be engaged with understanding. Even groups as differing as the Baptists and the Jehovahs Witnesses are really not as different as they outwardly appear once you have understood this essential point — indeed if you ever have an opportunity to see a Baptist and a Jehovahs Witness argue over the Bible, you will notice that in the final analysis they simply quote different Scriptures back and forth at each other.

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 2:46-47, Acts 4:23 - 31 is a liturgical formula of praise, remembrance of God's works and petition.

All of Revelation is a Divine Liturgy!

 

[nutroll]

Acts 17:
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them.

Jesus said;
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

You can't take the quote from Saint Paul from Acts too far or you run into trouble when the glory of the Lord fills the temple. While it would be incorrect to say that God was confined to the temple, it would be just as incorrect to say that God did not dwell there because He did. He was particularly present with the people of Israel while simultaneously being everywhere present and filling all things.

We see a similar thing happen in the person of Jesus Christ. We can't say that the Son of God, the second person of the Most Holy Trinity left Heaven, or that He was somehow not everywhere, and yet He was most definitely somewhere in the person of Jesus Christ the God-man.

The difference between this and idols is that the idol itself is seen as a god. The idol has powers, the idol is to be served and worshipped. If you destroy the idol, you destroy the god. No one views icons in this way. While you may focus on "God is Spirit" you neglect to see that we must worship both in spirit "and truth." How can we worship God become man without acknowledging that He became visible and therefore depictable? How can we worship God without acknowledging that the Holy Spirit dwells in us and transforms man, made in the image of God, back into the likeness to God? We don't worship images, but neither do we lie to ourselves that God is only spirit.

In the Old Testament, there were many images crafted at the command of God. Perhaps the most important of these was the Cherubim overshadowing the Mercy Seat. God who was invisible could not be depicted, but God commanded these Cherubim, that the people might know that He was there with them. In a sense, the Cherubim form the negative space around and invisible image of the invisible God. Now that God has become man, that invisible image is visible. We make the image of the God-man Jesus Christ, and the image that was a foreshadowing is filled with the image of the True God.

 

[Psalm 27]

 

[nutroll]

It's hard to understand why posting Scriptures we're familiar with doesn't make us realize the error of our ways, huh? The problem is that all your objections have been dealt with so long ago, so posting Scripture verses to people who read their Bibles is a bit pointless....

 

[Psalm 27]

It's hard to understand why posting Scriptures we're familiar with doesn't make us realize the error of our ways, huh? The problem is that all your objections have been dealt with so long ago, so posting Scripture verses to people who read their Bibles is a bit pointless....

Yes! Mark 4:10-12

 

[prodromos]

Yes! Mark 4:10-12

So do you consider yourself the former, or the latter?