Carrying lethal weapons for self-defense

[Sketcher]

I understand the concept of self protection if someone attacks your spouse or child, I get that.

Then naturally it would make sense for people to carry guns for protection. Lethal threats do not wait for you to come home.

They also say that killing others with a handgun is probably OK because they are GUILTY, whereas killing a baby is wrong because they are innocent. I still don't get it.

I don't get not getting that. Killing a guilty perpetrator in self-defence is far more moral than killing an innocent baby could ever be.

Many feel like if they are in a public place and someone tries to rob a store or something that it is THEIR DUTY to pull out a gun and start shooting.

If they are trained and if the tactical situation calls for it, I can see that.

Remember, you can't take away bullets. Once you shoot someone you cannot take it back.

Very true, it needs to be very seriously considered and prayed over before one purchases a firearm. Personally, I'd like to see less-lethal weapons such as batons be made legal again. They can protect against knives in the right hands, and assailants can be stopped without putting their lives at risk.

In all likelihood, you will end up being hated by many like in the case of George Zimmerman. Whether or not it was legit to shoot, his life is OVER. He cannot get a real job and live a normal life.

This assumes that the carrier would have judgment as poor as Zimmerman's.

I do not want to be in a resturaunt and have some un-trained civilian blasting off rounds with my family there.

You do realize that many states require training before issuing a concealed carry license, don't you? And that there is a heavy emphasis on training in gun culture?

Yes, there have been times where mass shootings occur, but don't you think your God is big enough to protect you?

He is, but I don't see carrying as less trustful of God than locking one's door. If I were to be carrying, I would definitely be trusting in God - so that I would either not have to draw the firearm, or to hit only the right targets when I do draw it.

 

[Dkh587]

The Messiah told his disciples to sell and buy a sword


Luke 22:35-38 NLT

Then Yahushua asked them, “When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you did not have money, a traveler’s bag, or an extra pair of sandals, did you need anything?”

“No,” they replied.

“But now,” Yahushua said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels.’ Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.”

“Look, Master,” they replied, “we have two swords among us.”

“That’s enough,” Yahushua said.

‭

A sword is a deadly weapon for self defense. A gun in my opinion is a modern equivalent in our culture and society to a sword 2000 years ago. We shouldn't trust in the sword, but obviously according to the Messiah there's nothing wrong with having a sword/weapon. Why would there be an issue having a gun? You can kill just as easily with a sword as with a gun...

 

[TurtleAnne]

I'll just say straight up that I am not obedient enough nor is my faith strong enough to not carry a dangerous weapon. I don't even carry a gun, I carry a highly lethal blade that was designed just for the purpose of defensive killing, no utility ability whatsoever, because there are a couple certain things, a couple crimes so sick and evil, that if I ever see them happening, I am going to attack someone, and God's judgement of me will be just, including if He damns me for my disobedience, lack of faith and shedding of another's blood. Maybe at some point things (for me) will be different, I don't know. But to be honest, even if I didn't have my knife, there are a couple certain things, if I saw them, I would bite out their jugular with my own jaw if I had to. I just know this about myself. A highly accurate weapon at least gives more of an option to neutralize/maim rather than outright kill. Maybe I would shred their arms in a fit of blind rage, but they would survive. I know this all probably sounds pretty morbid and melodramatic, but I have actually thought about it quite a bit over the years, was honest with myself and made my choice.

 

[Open Heart]

I am seeing a growing movement in the church. People carrying loaded handguns around.
Even in church. It is very puzzling to me.

The puritans and pilgrims proudly brought their guns to church.

Remember that Christ told his disciples to go out and buy swords.

Unfortunately now live in a day and age where people are fatally attacked even in churches and Bible studies. God does want us to protect life. "Do not stand idly by while your neighbor's blood is shed."

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I myself would not carry a gun, but that is more from personal reasons regarding my profession. I do think that those legally allowed to so, it is perfectly acceptable. The world can be a dangerous place and it is our duty to protect our fellow man, as per do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I would just point out that I have never understood the verse about buying a sword to be about literally buying a weapon. It is preceded by verses about the lack of necesity to have wallets etc. and when shown two swords Jesus replies they are sufficient (for seventy odd sent out). I think the swords should be more understood metaphorically, as in fighting against unrighteousness and the world, as Miles Christi - soldiers of Christ.
After all, Jesus rebuked Peter for bearing a sword in Gethsemane - Those who take the sword shall perish by the sword.

I think some are meant to be armed for the good of all, but by doing so you are taking the responsibility on yourself to defend your fellow man and suffer the consequences of your actions, whatever they may be. Earlier in Luke, Jesus told the soldiers to be content with their wages, not to quit the profession after all. It is a personal moral decision if you would take the burden of gun-ownership upon yourself.

 

[Fidelibus]

As a Catholic and a Usher, I carry a weapon to Mass with the blessing of my Pastor. I have a Concealed Handgun Licence (CHL) issued by the State I reside. To open carry a weapon would understandely make people uncomfortable. I have been carrying "concealed" at Mass for many years and no one but one other Usher and my Parish Priest knows of it.
"The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor…. The one is intended, the other is not."----- St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[Tetra]

I thought the disciples carried swords?

John 18:10 - 11
10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)
11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

Note, Jesus had no issue with Peter carrying the sword, the issue here was that Jesus needed to fulfill the prophesy and Peter was defending Jesus. Which is why he responded "Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?".

 

[roamer_1]

[...] It is a trick to get us to agree with murder and maybe even do it.

Defense of self or others is by definition *not* murder.

If you are a gun carrier, I beg you to think this through. Pray about it. Read the words of Yeshua.

I have been packin iron most of my life. I see absolutely *no* dichotomy between 'the words of Yeshua' and defending myself.

Where would anyone get such a silly idea?

 

[roamer_1]

I don't know which university it was but there was a study that showed you're more likely to be shot in a home invasion scenario if you are armed yourself, so the false sense of security it gives people is also something perhaps worth addressing.

Ok... Howabout Baloney!?

It's a difficult situation, though. A great many people are American before they are Christian

Again, baloney.

and in situations like that there's never going to be chance of concession on their behalf because to them, the right to bear arms is God-given(something I've always found laughable considering the 13th came what, 70 years after the 2nd... but anyway), so it's a lost cause really.

We have this quaint idea that governments are raised up to protect the rights of men - those rights exist BEFORE the government raised to protect them, and are God-given to remove them from the reach of the usurper - The right to defend oneself is of course, God given. I cannot think of any instance where that right would even need to be calculated.

 

[Shempster]

Defense of self or others is by definition *not* murder.



I have been packin iron most of my life. I see absolutely *no* dichotomy between 'the words of Yeshua' and defending myself.

Where would anyone get such a silly idea?

Decent point noted but it doesn't seem silly to me.

 

[roamer_1]

That's different. Police officers are part of the government and the government is the sword.

No the government is not the sword. Where would you get such an idea? The government is the cleanup crew. Response times are always way too late. If you want to live, the response needs to be immediate.

 

[roamer_1]

Which is my reasoning. When I buy a gun I don't want to kill unless I have no choice. I'd rather shoot someone in the leg so they can't go anywhere so the cops can arrest them.

That's actually very bad math.
Rule of thumb is, if you're pointing a gun at something. Kiil it. Twice. Then worry about whatever.
Your decision making will get you dead.

 

[High Fidelity]

Where would you get such an idea?

Romans 13:4.

 

[roamer_1]

The biggest problem here in America is our gun laws aren't strict enough. People can still buy them illegally online or on the street.

Nonsense. Where the gun laws AREN'T strict, where the population is armed, the violent crime rate is way down. It is the cities, where gun prevention laws exist that have spiraling murder rates.

And btw, Give me 500 bucks and plant me anywhere, and I'll have a gun in my hand in three days. Criminals don't pay mind to your precious laws. If they want a gun, they can get one. What gun laws do is restrict the lawful.

And many who get them legally don't keep them locked up safely, so someone else ends up using it and killing someone or themselves.

A locked up gun is a useless gun.

I think for now we can't do much since if you told america no more guns, odds are to many would kill anyone who tried to take their guns.

Damn straight.

Guns mean freedom, but it also means violence.

The opposite is submission. To tyrants.

 

[roamer_1]

Decent point noted but it doesn't seem silly to me.

It's absolutely silly. A product of your environment.

 

[roamer_1]

Romans 13:4.

Great. Guess all you can do is wait the 15 min response time for the police. which means you're dead.

Or, you can be out here in the sticks, where response times can be hours - And folks just know they have to take care of themselves. And they do.

 

[roamer_1]

I think some are meant to be armed for the good of all, but by doing so you are taking the responsibility on yourself to defend your fellow man and suffer the consequences of your actions, whatever they may be.

Your point is well thought out, and I don't disagree - but I would encourage you to expand the notion to something close to what is here, where I am, where guns and knives are just part of the furniture, and defense of self and property comes most often in creatures other than hoomin.

As such, everyone is 'meant to be armed'.

 

[High Fidelity]

Great. Guess all you can do is wait the 15 min response time for the police. which means you're dead.

Or, you can be out here in the sticks, where response times can be hours - And folks just know they have to take care of themselves. And they do.

Or, you know, buy an alarm and pretty much eliminate the chances of being robbed in the first place. They may be criminals, but they aren't stupid.

Either way, there are alternatives or at least additions to owning a firearm that will limit the necessity of firing it in anger at all.. but they're often overlooked.

"If they get in, I've got my gun" is beyond ridiculous. Go to a forward operating base in Afghanistan, full of armed and trained soldiers, and see if they hold the same sentiments. (Hint: They don't)

 

[roamer_1]

I'll just say straight up that I am not obedient enough nor is my faith strong enough to not carry a dangerous weapon. I don't even carry a gun, I carry a highly lethal blade that was designed just for the purpose of defensive killing [...]

*thumbs up* You'll do.
And it isn't a matter of faith, but a matter of practicality.
Both of my daughters received beautiful silver, turquoise inlaid, switchblade knives for their 14th birthday. Make no bones about it - if anyone needs a knife ready to hand, it would be a young woman.

And what I carry, as a matter of day-to-day, would make most of these folks go white with panic. Here, such things are just a matter of course.

 

[roamer_1]

Or, you know, buy an alarm and pretty much eliminate the chances of being robbed in the first place. They may be criminals, but they aren't stupid.

No, they're not stupid. I can get past any alarm you might have.

Either way, there are alternatives or at least additions to owning a firearm that will limit the necessity of firing it in anger at all.. but they're often overlooked.

I have never used a weapon in anger. You have that all wrong.

And I have many, many defensive options (even on my person). One who has guns is usually conversant with other means.

"If they get in, I've got my gun" is beyond ridiculous. Go to a forward operating base in Afghanistan, full of armed and trained soldiers, and see if they hold the same sentiments. (Hint: They don't)

Neither do we - I think you are projection your own thoughts on folks.

Even so, that fwd base does not remove guns from the list, and neither should you. If you only need it one time, and don't have it, you would rue the day... for a minute or two, anyway.