Carnal Christians

Tellyontellyon

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Hello, I've come across the phrase Carnal Christian, and I'm not completely sure what it means?

Is it somebody who has accepted Jesus as Saviour, but continues to sin.

If we are saved by grace alone, then what then is the effect of continuing to sin?

Can a Saved person become Unsaved? How?

Thank you.
 

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Philippians 3:17-21 (AMP)

17 Brothers and sisters, together follow my example and observe those who live by the pattern we gave you. 18 For there are many, of whom I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, who live as enemies of the cross of Christ [rejecting and opposing His way of salvation], 19 whose fate is destruction, whose god is their belly [their worldly appetite, their sensuality, their vanity], and whose glory is in their shame—who focus their mind on earthly and temporal things. 20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.​
 
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Ricky M

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Romans 10:9 says the only way to be saved is to believe in your heart and confess Christ with your lips. Thus, the only way to forfeit salvation is to stop believing and deny Christ.

Many confuse apostasy (turning away) and backsliding - where you still believe, you just don't walk the walk.

Carnal Christianity is referring to backsliders.

And while sin is meaningless concerning salvation (not entirely but making a point), there are still consequences .. such as putting yourself under demonic oppression (not possession), and reward when we are caught up.
 
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Billy UK

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The KJV translates Strong's G4559 in the following manner: carnal (9x), fleshly (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. fleshly, carnal
    1. having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
      1. governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God

      2. having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature

      3. human: with the included idea of depravity
    2. pertaining to the flesh
      1. to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
 
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Hello, I've come across the phrase Carnal Christian, and I'm not completely sure what it means?

Is it somebody who has accepted Jesus as Saviour, but continues to sin.

If we are saved by grace alone, then what then is the effect of continuing to sin?

Can a Saved person become Unsaved? How?

Thank you.
Greetings. This topic is debated frequently among Christians. Some believe in 'once saved, always saved' and a true born again Christian can't or won't lose salvation. Others believe that we can 'turn aside after Satan' and lose our salvation if we persist in sin but God is patient and willing to forgive if we repent. Still others believe we must confess our sins and do penance as needed and on a regular basis. Others believe that salvation is a lifelong process and that we ought not to consider ourselves 'saved' since we all must face judgement day and that is when we are actually 'saved' damned. Some also believe that some are predestined to be saved and others not, and that free will is an illusion. You can find verses to support any of these perspectives.
 
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Sketcher

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Hello, I've come across the phrase Carnal Christian, and I'm not completely sure what it means?

Is it somebody who has accepted Jesus as Saviour, but continues to sin.

If we are saved by grace alone, then what then is the effect of continuing to sin?

Can a Saved person become Unsaved? How?

Thank you.
It generally refers to Christians who aren't as spiritually focused as other Christians. Sometimes, that's accurate. Other times, the Christian using the term isn't acting as humbly as he or she needs to be.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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You can find verses to support any of these perspectives
But there must be a position that unites all the scriptures, they can't all be right, but there must be one right position that is not contradicted by any scripture.
What is that position... is there a consensus?
 
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Chris V++

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there must be one right position

The only Christian consensus is that 'Jesus Saves." He is the spotless (without blemish/perfect/sinless) sacrificial 'Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." Beyond that there is no consensus. There seems to be an Orthodox perspective, a Catholic perspective, and a half a dozen protestant interpretations. Not all the Christian denominations are in communion with one another and disagree on a lot of scripture and tradition.

Are there opposing factions in Buddhism?
 
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Chris V++

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That's beside the point. I'm not here to debate Buddhism, I'm here to learn about Christianity.
Could you please just say what you believe and why?
Sure, sorry I wasn't trying to debate. I 'm what's called a 'born again' Christian. I n one instant I went from being an unbeliever to becoming what some but not all describe as 'saved.' The lyrics of the song Amazing Grace "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost but now I'm found twas blind, but now I see." describe my experience perfectly. I think of it as 'enlightenment' like the aims of Buddhism. Jesus said he was lighten our load afterall. Food tastes better, my senses were quickened, I became joyous, and I started to discern things differently, all starting in an instant in time, the 'hour I first believed.' So, I can't imagine ever turning aside completely. That said, there are a lot of Christians who didn't have my experience, like my brother for example, who always believed. So his walk is different than my walk. And he belongs to a different denomination with established customs. Many traditions don't even recognize my 'born again' experience as valid or doesnt constitute salvation. We have direct quotes from Jesus saying we must be 'born again.' but what He meant by that exactly is hotly debated. Some say 'born again' it's a baptismal ritual that even applies to babies. Other's say baptism always followed repentance and is reserved for the believer. Not long after i had my conversion experience i felt compelled to get baptized and found someone to baptize me, even though I was Christened as an infant. I wish I could give you a definitive answer. I can quote the scriptures used to support the different positions.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Sure, sorry I wasn't trying to debate. I 'm what's called a 'born again' Christian. I n one instant I went from being an unbeliever to becoming what some but not all describe as 'saved.' The lyrics of the song Amazing Grace "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost but now I'm found twas blind, but now I see." describe my experience perfectly. I think of it as 'enlightenment' like the aims of Buddhism. Jesus said he was lighten our load afterall. Food tastes better, my senses were quickened, I became joyous, and I started to discern things differently, all starting in an instant in time, the 'hour I first believed.' So, I can't imagine ever turning aside completely. That said, there are a lot of Christians who didn't have my experience, like my brother for example, who always believed. So his walk is different than my walk. And he belongs to a different denomination with established customs. Many traditions don't even recognize my 'born again' experience as valid or doesnt constitute salvation. We have direct quotes from Jesus saying we must be 'born again.' but what He meant by that exactly is hotly debated. Some say 'born again' it's a baptismal ritual that even applies to babies. Other's say baptism always followed repentance and is reserved for the believer. Not long after i had my conversion experience i felt compelled to get baptized and found someone to baptize me, even though I was Christened as an infant. I wish I could give you a definitive answer. I can quote the scriptures used to support the different positions.
That's a wonderful account. I think being born again and being saved must involve some sort of discernable change in oneself. It may not have to be so quick but I think there must be some sense of a deep down shift of some sort if somebody is truly saved. A shift in perspective may be enough.
I'm sure though, humans being human, that there will still be sinning after this death and rebirth with Jesus... some old habits may carry over from your previous 'life' to the new life you have in Jesus.
How is the born again Christian to regard and work with their own sin?
If a person is saved then they are going to heaven right? But they still have a life to live here now and this life must matter to God? There must be a purpose beyond being saved. God may have a plan for you that you need to find and follow.
So what if you refuse that plan? What if you are saved but still follow your own will and don't choose to discern God's will and obey.
 
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Thanks. Great questions. These questions are also debated among Christians.
How is the born again Christian to regard and work with their own sin?
Most Christians believe we are supposed to strive not to sin. When we sin we should repent and confess. Some traditions prescribe penance. If a Christian is going around sinning willfully and thinking he is granted some sort of license to sin then there is some hypocrisy going on. It's hard to read the Bible and come away with the notion that we can get away with sin without consequences.

So what if you refuse that plan? What if you are saved but still follow your own will and don't choose to discern God's will and obey.
God rebukes us and seeks to restore us to humility. The Creator and King of the universe is not someone to be trifled with.

' Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.. '
Jesus Himself said of the religious hypocrites of his day:
“Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."

There is also the reap what you sow principle similar to karma
'Do [not[/B] be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. '

But we are a work in process. There is a potter and clay metaphor. We are molded like clay.
 
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Samaritan Woman

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Hello, I've come across the phrase Carnal Christian, and I'm not completely sure what it means?

I think the apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church sums up this issue well. In it he addresses these believers who were indulging in all types of sin, and he criticized their spiritual immaturity despite having already been taught by him (1 Corinthians 3). There was internal quarreling leading to factions (ch 2), gross sexual sin among two of the believers (ch 5), lawsuits against each being resolved in Roman court instead of within their church (ch 6), and disorderly worship (11:16-22). These "baby Christians" required severe chastisement because their behavior mirrored those of the surrounding culture while being poor representations of Christ to the pagans around them.

I've been a believer for almost twenty years and when I examine my own behavior over those two decades much, and I mean much, of my actions definitely did not reflect spiritual maturity. I did grow while not remaining stagnate but it would be extremely hypocritical of me to criticize other Christians for doing the very types of things I did. I think calling fellow believers "carnal Christians" is a reflection of pride; we never know what's going on inside someone's heart and mind
 
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Samaritan Woman

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Philippians 3:17-21 (AMP)
17 Brothers and sisters, together follow my example and observe those who live by the pattern we gave you. 18 For there are many, of whom I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, who live as enemies of the cross of Christ [rejecting and opposing His way of salvation], 19 whose fate is destruction, whose god is their belly [their worldly appetite, their sensuality, their vanity], and whose glory is in their shame—who focus their mind on earthly and temporal things. 20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.

So what's the point you're trying to make? I could make a supposition but would rather hear it from you.
 
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Be aware that the meaning of Phil 3:18 is not obvious. The key word is "belly." It means our corporeal side. But in Rom 16:18 it is used to refer to the Judaizers, probably because of their emphasis on the food laws. In that case I'd say the reference would be sort of sarcastic, which is certainly consistent with how Paul sometimes writes on this issue.
 
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Billy UK

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So what's the point you're trying to make? I could make a supposition but would rather hear it from you.

My point is that a Christian who follows the Scriptures and not a God of their own Imagination should walk after the Spirit and NOT after the Flesh.

Romans 8 (KJV)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



Therefore a Carnal Christian who by Biblical Definition of the word carnal is one who is walking after the flesh instead of the Spirit


The KJV translates Strong's G4559 in the following manner: carnal (9x), fleshly (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. fleshly, carnal
  2. having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
  3. governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
  4. having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature
  5. human: with the included idea of depravity
  • pertaining to the flesh
  • to the body: related to birth, linage, etc​


Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



That's why in the present we are meant to choose to REPENT to stop walking after our flesh and start walking after the Spirit. This was the whole reason why Paul wrote to the Carnal Christians in order to get them to turn away from being Carnal/Fleshly



1 Corinthians 3 (KJV)

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?



The KJV translates Strong's G4559 in the following manner: carnal (9x), fleshly (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. fleshly, carnal
  2. having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
  3. governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
 
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Hello, I've come across the phrase Carnal Christian, and I'm not completely sure what it means?

It's not a term that gets used in the circles I participate in. Presumably the phrase refers to a Christian who chooses to live in accordance wit the appetites of their flesh, that is, they willfully sin and refuse repentance.

Is it somebody who has accepted Jesus as Saviour, but continues to sin.

All Christians continue to sin. That's the reality of living in this present world as mortal, sinful, human beings. Christians are both saints and sinners. It's a paradox described as Simul iustus et peccator, Latin for "At once both saint and sinner." We have been reckoned righteous--justified--on account of God's grace, but this is not our righteousness, but the righteousness of Jesus which is ours as a pure gift. This alien righteousness makes us righteous before God, this is our "new man", the new creation in Christ, by which we are alive to God and dead to sin. At the same time we are still mortal flesh, the lusts and appetites of the flesh which pull us away from God are present, against which we are called to strive and struggle against. That is the reason for repentance, the reason we are told "If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)

The classic passage that describes this tension, this conflict, between the New Man and the Old Man is Romans chapter 7. Where St. Paul describes the conflict within himself,

"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the Law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the Law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Christ Jesus our Lord! So then, I myself serve the Law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
" - Romans 7:15-25

If we are saved by grace alone, then what then is the effect of continuing to sin?

The grace of God is not a starting point from which we must then go on and do what we want. There are some who seem to suggest that we must begin at the cross of Jesus, but then not stay there, but move forward toward something else.

This is a deeply problematic mistake, it is a path which leads to the shipwrecking of our faith. As sinners we must always daily be crucified, be drowned under the waters of repentance. To have the Law preached to mortify and crucify our flesh, and draw us to our knees in repentance, to cry out, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!" (Luke 18:13) To confess our sin, to be honest with ourselves that we are sinners in need of God's grace and forgiveness. And it is here that we hear God's Word, "Your sins are forgiven" because here is the Gospel of God's grace, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Gospel and Message of the Cross. That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, "And I am the chief of sinners." (1 Timothy 1:15), that "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). For the Lord Jesus Himself says, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17)

And that is why we come together to hear God's Word and receive His Sacraments. Because through these precious gifts, these Means of Grace, God is active, working, accomplishing His good work in us. That work which He promises to keep working upon, even until the very end, "And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the Day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)

This good work is His work, which He is always at work at in our lives, through His Word and Sacraments, gifting us faith, sustaining and nourishing us with His Word, the Holy Spirit Himself keeping us and holding us. So that we can be confident of these precious things of God.

If we abandon this, if we throw this all away, then we throw away the only thing that saves us. That is, we shipwreck ourselves.

Can a Saved person become Unsaved? How?

Thank you.

If we turn away from our Salvation--Jesus Christ Himself--then we abandon and throw away everything that is good, and we shipwreck ourselves and our faith. Like a man throwing himself off a cliff, or steering himself into jagged rocks.

Salvation isn't some switch, it is the reality of what God is doing for us, and the whole world, through Jesus. We can be assured of our salvation, not because there is some flipped switch that means we can go live however we want and we still get our golden ticket; but rather because God's word and promise to us is certain, sure, and unfailing. The Gospel is God's power and promise of salvation to you, to me, to everyone through Jesus Christ, and it ours as pure grace, through faith which the Spirit Himself works in us and continues to work in us until the final day.

We cannot depend upon ourselves. But we can depend entirely on God's Word and Promise, we can depend entirely on Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith. This is Good News. This is the Gospel: Jesus Christ died for you, and you have peace with God, believe this good news, trust this good news, cast yourself entirely upon the One who was crucified for you and for the sins of the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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It's not a term that gets used in the circles I participate in. Presumably the phrase refers to a Christian who chooses to live in accordance wit the appetites of their flesh, that is, they willfully sin and refuse repentance.



All Christians continue to sin. That's the reality of living in this present world as mortal, sinful, human beings. Christians are both saints and sinners. It's a paradox described as Simul iustus et peccator, Latin for "At once both saint and sinner." We have been reckoned righteous--justified--on account of God's grace, but this is not our righteousness, but the righteousness of Jesus which is ours as a pure gift. This alien righteousness makes us righteous before God, this is our "new man", the new creation in Christ, by which we are alive to God and dead to sin. At the same time we are still mortal flesh, the lusts and appetites of the flesh which pull us away from God are present, against which we are called to strive and struggle against. That is the reason for repentance, the reason we are told "If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)

The classic passage that describes this tension, this conflict, between the New Man and the Old Man is Romans chapter 7. Where St. Paul describes the conflict within himself,

"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the Law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the Law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Christ Jesus our Lord! So then, I myself serve the Law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
" - Romans 7:15-25



The grace of God is not a starting point from which we must then go on and do what we want. There are some who seem to suggest that we must begin at the cross of Jesus, but then not stay there, but move forward toward something else.

This is a deeply problematic mistake, it is a path which leads to the shipwrecking of our faith. As sinners we must always daily be crucified, be drowned under the waters of repentance. To have the Law preached to mortify and crucify our flesh, and draw us to our knees in repentance, to cry out, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!" (Luke 18:13) To confess our sin, to be honest with ourselves that we are sinners in need of God's grace and forgiveness. And it is here that we hear God's Word, "Your sins are forgiven" because here is the Gospel of God's grace, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Gospel and Message of the Cross. That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, "And I am the chief of sinners." (1 Timothy 1:15), that "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). For the Lord Jesus Himself says, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17)

And that is why we come together to hear God's Word and receive His Sacraments. Because through these precious gifts, these Means of Grace, God is active, working, accomplishing His good work in us. That work which He promises to keep working upon, even until the very end, "And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the Day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)

This good work is His work, which He is always at work at in our lives, through His Word and Sacraments, gifting us faith, sustaining and nourishing us with His Word, the Holy Spirit Himself keeping us and holding us. So that we can be confident of these precious things of God.

If we abandon this, if we throw this all away, then we throw away the only thing that saves us. That is, we shipwreck ourselves.



If we turn away from our Salvation--Jesus Christ Himself--then we abandon and throw away everything that is good, and we shipwreck ourselves and our faith. Like a man throwing himself off a cliff, or steering himself into jagged rocks.

Salvation isn't some switch, it is the reality of what God is doing for us, and the whole world, through Jesus. We can be assured of our salvation, not because there is some flipped switch that means we can go live however we want and we still get our golden ticket; but rather because God's word and promise to us is certain, sure, and unfailing. The Gospel is God's power and promise of salvation to you, to me, to everyone through Jesus Christ, and it ours as pure grace, through faith which the Spirit Himself works in us and continues to work in us until the final day.

We cannot depend upon ourselves. But we can depend entirely on God's Word and Promise, we can depend entirely on Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith. This is Good News. This is the Gospel: Jesus Christ died for you, and you have peace with God, believe this good news, trust this good news, cast yourself entirely upon the One who was crucified for you and for the sins of the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran

That is a really good explanation. Thank you.
 
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