Cardinal Pell's appeal has been dismissed.

[creslaw]

Not sure what you mean by this....but Pell's allegations were "tested"....in court.

You have been arguing that even if Pell were innocent of the charges he faced in court he deserves to go to jail because of his other "crimes".
Because those other accusations have not been tested in court they should not enter into consideration, especially when a police task force was formed with the specific purpose of recruiting complainants who were prepared to name Pell as their abuser, and they were told there was a possible $70K in the pot.
When vulnerable people have a name suggested to them they can incorporate this into their memory which taints the reliability of their allegations.
And this is quite apart from some of the accusations being downright silly - taking his clothes off to have a shower in a surf club change room while there were boys present was spun as "exposing himself".

 

[Ana the Ist]

You have been arguing that even if Pell were innocent of the charges he faced in court he deserves to go to jail because of his other "crimes".

If he committed those crimes...yes.

Surely you're not suggesting that his crimes go unanswered?

 

[creslaw]

If he committed those crimes...yes. Surely you're not suggesting that his crimes go unanswered?

The point is these other allegations are not crimes, they are untested, disputable accusations ... and we do not punish people on that basis.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The point is these other allegations are not crimes.

Yes...they are. He's not accused of serving ice cream...he's not accused of having a poor sense of humor...he's accused of crimes.

 

[creslaw]

Yes...they are. He's not accused of serving ice cream...he's not accused of having a poor sense of humor...he's accused of crimes.

Accused of crimes does not mean guilty of crimes ... but to those fueled by feelings of hate & vengeance there is no difference.

No doubt the discussion will revive next year when a variety of outcomes is possible, including 7 justices of the High Court unanimously voting to acquit Pell ... until then I am finished with this thread.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Accused of crimes does not mean guilty of crimes ... but to those fueled by feelings of hate & vengeance there is no difference..

Sure...but he's also been found guilty of crimes lol.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I think it should concern people the even though actual incidents of sexual abuse by clergy do occur and should be prosecuted, this particular case looks weird.

It seems very unlikely that what allegedly occurred took place with the time and circumstances given in which is would have had to occur.

To throw someone innocent of this particular crime in prison to atone for or compensate for all those actual criminal and predatory priests who have gotten away with it feels unwise, cruel, unjust, and bigoted. "They're just Catholics, they're all the same, jail one guy who probably didn't do it, so what".

I don't understand why more people aren't concerned that given the specifics of this particular case, there are issues, and Cardinal Pell may well be innocent.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think it should concern people the even though actual incidents of sexual abuse by clergy do occur and should be prosecuted, this particular case looks weird.

It seems very unlikely that what allegedly occurred took place with the time and circumstances given in which is would have had to occur.

To throw someone innocent of this particular crime in prison to atone for or compensate for all those actual criminal and predatory priests who have gotten away with it feels unwise, cruel, unjust, and bigoted. "They're just Catholics, they're all the same, jail one guy who probably didn't do it, so what".

I don't understand why more people aren't concerned that given the specifics of this particular case, there are issues, and Cardinal Pell may well be innocent.

The appellate courts don't seem to have a problem with his conviction.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't understand why more people aren't concerned that given the specifics of this particular case, there are issues, and Cardinal Pell may well be innocent.

I'm not particularly concerned because I genuinely think he probably did it. And many other times that he got away with. Melbourne is not that big a city that I haven't heard many things that don't make it into the news or the courts.

 

[anna ~ grace]

And nor has this victim ever sought money, either through the church's compensation scheme or through a civil case.

I will agree that the crime as described - and remembering that neither we nor the press have heard all the evidence - seems unlikely. But I am not in the position to second-guess those who did hear all the evidence, and they found the Cardinal guilty.

Even though you initially felt that the crime as described seemed unlikely? Do you still feel that way?

 

[Paidiske]

Even though you initially felt that the crime as described seemed unlikely? Do you still feel that way?

The detail which seems unlikely to me is an empty sacristy immediately after Mass. I've worked in a cathedral and I know the process of packing up/washing up/disrobing and so on, and what that space is like immediately after a big service.

That said, all it would take for the account to become plausible would be a time lag of ten minutes or so. I have no problem with the idea that the victim's sense of time on the day might have been distorted by that little, especially given alcohol and trauma are involved.

But really, the key point is, my assessment of the likelihood is not relevant, because I have not heard the victim's testimony, and neither has anyone else but those involved in the court hearing. Without all the facts, we are not in a position to second-guess the verdict.

 

[tall73]

Australian High Court quashes Cardinal Pell's conviction on sex offenses

Pell's conviction was overturned.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Australian High Court quashes Cardinal Pell's conviction on sex offenses

Pell's conviction was overturned.

Excellent news.

 

[Tanj]

High Court Decision seemed fair. That's the end of that then.

 

[Paidiske]

He'll face a slew of civil cases now (I believe there are eight in the pipeline), as well as the findings of the Royal Commission which have been redacted up until now being made public.

As for this decision, our system is broken. For some victims there is no possibility of justice.

 

[JohnAshton]

A whole lot of something that the Church does not want revealed is going to be revealed now in civil cases.

 

[creslaw]

Unfortunately lawyers can smell money, and with emotionally charged juries showing they are prepared to ignore actual evidence, civil cases will ensue ... and possibly succeed.

 

[creslaw]

Excellent news.

A unanimous 7-0 verdict to acquit Cardinal Pell is excellent news for those who could see the faults in the system that allowed him to be found guilty without evidence. Hopefully Australia's legal system will not go down the path of guilt by accusation.

Justice for victims of sexual abuse should not mean condoning injustice ... though sadly that is what seems to be the attitude of many.

 

[creslaw]

Australian High Court quashes Cardinal Pell's conviction on sex offenses

Pell's conviction was overturned.

In this case I really wonder who is guilty of damaging victims of child abuse when a court case that many in the legal fraternity believed would not succeed in the High Court is pursued by police & lawyers & advocate groups.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

He'll face a slew of civil cases now (I believe there are eight in the pipeline), as well as the findings of the Royal Commission which have been redacted up until now being made public.

As for this decision, our system is broken. For some victims there is no possibility of justice.

Weren't you saying earlier we should trust in the judgement of the courts?

Either way justice was served for an innocent man not guilty of the accusation against him.