capitalism and christianity

[JohnRabbit]

are capitalism and christianity compatible?

 

[Mountainmike]

is capitalism and christianity compatible?

As a serial business owner I have often wondered that, but I came to the conclusion that private enterprise is the only net wealth generator creates the vast majority of jobs, and funds via taxes all the other jobs and social programs.

So in itself it is not bad. Wealth is neither good nor evil it depends how it is used. Bill Gates mission to use his wealth to give all on the planet clean water is beneficial, and to spend on such programmes you first need to earn.

The alternatives of communism and socialism spending vast amounts of borrowed or printed money on social spending have done nothing but harm, bubbles of euphoria burst very quickly and end as Cuba, Venezuela, Greece, or Detroit as recent examples. God forbid Corbyn turns Britain into Venezuela but that is his plan.

Capitalism is a great leveller, despite being Seen as fuelling inequality, The living standards of hundreds of millions of new middle class ordinary Chinese have skyrocketed, by opening to capitalism, Sadly It has hurt richer nations by funnelling wealth to lower cost areas. Those who consider that trickle down has failed should notice that poverty has digital TVs and smartphones now, where even my generation of middle class struggled to make ends meet, never eat out, few had cars and Other luxuries,

I will say this. I think false prosperity fuelled by borrowing is evil.
And yet they still keep printing dollars and euros, and urging all to lend. It cannot end well.

 

[timewerx]

is capitalism and christianity compatible?

No, I don't think so.

Creation originally did not have a price tag until the concept of ownership (greed) came. And even before that, man's original sin.

Jesus did not made a profit healing people of their sickness or evil spirits.

Profit is therefore a the by-product of the corrupt human nature.

 

[timewerx]

Sadly It has hurt richer nations by funnelling wealth to lower cost areas. Those who consider that trickle down has failed should notice that poverty has digital TVs and smartphones now, where even my generation of middle class struggled to make ends meet, never eat out, few had cars and Other luxuries,

That's because Capitalism is a by-product of corrupt human nature. Would God make something so destructive to His own creations like Capitalism?

It's more like a cancer because growth of Capitalism can only be sustained by population growth and the rising human population is responsible for destroying many living ecosystems and large scale pollution of the planet.

We need to dramatically reduce human population now, through aggressive birth control. But people fear the move will crash the capitalist economy. That's a system that wants more (greed) naturally, cannot thrive in less.

 

[Sabertooth]

is capitalism and christianity compatible?

Jesus said they are.

 

[Mountainmike]

I think you have a strange view of what capitalism is!

Capitalism and currency are inextricably linked, the result of the need to exchange goods.

As a farmer it is inefficient to make tractors which have to be built in volume. As a tractor maker you cannot efficiently specialise in growing food. Currency is the need for society to specialize and determine a means of exchange and holding value prior to exchange.

You personally are the driving force of capitalism. It is not imposed on you. Currency allows comparison of value and you choose the cheapest in order to maximise the value of your own output in terms of the things you need to live. That is why you buy foreign goods, so capitalism is a leveller of economies.

Responding to you, capitalism ensures survival only of the efficient so cheapest way of achieving an outcome, be that food or the means of ploughing fields, so all have the best standard of living for the amount of resources they create and consume. Capitalism curbs excessive profit. Because he who takes most profit out of the business, ceases to be cheap, and loses market share. So even profit is regulated by the market.

None of that is evil. Indeed, now people live longer in retirement, the proportion of consumers to workers is ever rising, so efficiency is essential to try to maintain quality of life

Indeed - In order to find money for social programmes and a society safety net, all must be efficient enough to produce more than they consume, which is the essence of profit. And without profit, then taxed you have no social spening.


Clearly there are problems.

Take debt, which I think, and the bible thinks is evil.
Encouraging all to live above their means on borrowed money does nothing but harm. And when done at a country level, passes a debt from one generation to another.

And those creaming the system.
The ones who take an excessive cut when money changes hands, out of all proportion to what their role costs. Take bankers, and many "agents" of all descriptions.

Speculators rather than investors on assets

Monopolies (including state monopolies, or state regulation created) which force to buy from one source, must have prices constrained.

All the abuses need regulation.
They are what happens when evil abuse capitalism.

But they are not the essence of capitalism itself.
Which is the exchange of goods and services in which the buyer picks the cheapest way he can to get what he needs. All the rest follows.

In my view even the Warren Buffets and amazons of this world as investors rather than speculators are a force for Good. Both reinvest all they earn in ever bigger business, providing more jobs, more efficient distribution, lower costs. Google provides massive free facilities for all.
They invest, not speculate.

As for population, that is a whole other issue.
In fact...the richest countries tend to have the lowest birth rates and are most threatetend by the demographic time bomb of too low a birth rate to self sustain. Poorer countries have by far the greater explosion of population.
So I do not think your theory is so.

That's because Capitalism is a by-product of corrupt human nature. Would God make something so destructive to His own creations like Capitalism?

It's more like a cancer because growth of Capitalism can only be sustained by population growth and the rising human population is responsible for destroying many living ecosystems and large scale pollution of the planet.

We need to dramatically reduce human population now, through aggressive birth control. But people fear the move will crash the capitalist economy. That's a system that wants more (greed) naturally, cannot thrive in less.

 

[Eryk]

The owner class lives on the results of other people's work, and the workers get economic insecurity and fear of the future. No, I don't see anything moral here. Working people have no business defending this system. The wealthy know how to defend their class, but working people are easily distracted.

I'm not saying we have to dismantle the system, and replace a small number of owners who control most of the wealth with a small number of bureaucrats who control all of the wealth. But it takes a little bit of socialism to make capitalism work. Do you like having weekends off? Thank the socialists.

 

[timewerx]

The owner class lives on the results of other people's work

Indeed.

Even after the fall of man, God only mandated that man lives on his *own* toil, not the toil of others.

Capitalism makes it possible to earn huge on just little toil or the opposite, lots of toil for little earnings. Obviously that's because of subsisting on the toil of others. The concept of "added value" or profit, cheap labor of someone in 3rd world living miserable conditions and selling that service somewhere at profit, much to the worldly prosperity of only few.

God would actually severely punish those who earned money in such way (Matthew 24) To take advantage of the weak is a huge sin.

Capitalists think they owe us because they give us jobs. But is the salary their giving justifiable comparable to the luxury they live in for little toil?? In reality, they take more from the weak than they give to the weak.

If the poor stops working for the rich, nothing will change for the poor, but the rich will lose their fragile economy and that's a fact.

 

[Monna]

What variety of capitalism is this thread about? Capitalism in USA is not the same as capitalism in China or Brazil or Egypt or Saudi Arabia or...or...or. Nowhere is unbridled capitalism considered optimal. All countries impose some type of controls on their "capitalistic" systems.

Merriam-Webster says capitalis is "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market."

American Heritage Dictionary says it is "An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market."

Collins says it is "also called: free enterprise or private enterprise an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, characterized by the freedom of capitalists to operate or manage their property for profit in competitive conditions."

I could go on - there are numerous defintions, each of them slightly different or emphasizing a particular attribute.

 

[timewerx]

Responding to you, capitalism ensures survival only of the efficient so cheapest way of achieving an outcome

Yea, but often, the outcome is literally of cheap quality!

God made the Universe and us with great care, not with cheap tricks.

This is why Christianity and Capitalism is not compatible.

 

[Albion]

is capitalism and christianity compatible?

Freedom is of course compatible with Christianity. It is a natural right.

 

[Phil 1:21]

The owner class lives on the results of other people's work, and the workers get economic insecurity and fear of the future.

Capitalism isn't some economic caste system where you're born a street sweeper and will remain one forever. If you don't like working for someone else, go start your own business and work for yourself. People do it every day.

 

[Adstar]

is capitalism and christianity compatible?

Capitalisim is a bad system.. But it is the lest bad systen currently on offer.. All the current alternatives are just disasterous..

Christianity motvates people to love their neighbour.. So charity should be a mitigating thing that Christians have to lessen the bad outcomes of Capitalisim.. Also Christianity should moderate / lessen peoples fixation on greed.. Another negative effect that is common to a lot of human systems out there in the world..

In truth this world is not really compatable with Christianity.. Thats why we being in this world should not be products of this world..

 

[TheSeabass]

is capitalism and christianity compatible?

There is no reason why they would be incompatible.

 

[Albion]

Capitalism isn't some economic caste system where you're born a street sweeper and will remain one forever. If you don't like working for someone else, go start your own business and work for yourself. People do it every day.

...and the notion that the owner never does any work, doesn't risk his own money, and does whatever he can to hurt his employees is true mainly in Democrat/Socialist fantasies. The facts are to the opposite.

But if all that might be true in some instances, the employees and customers could go somewhere else and get what they want. And if you doubt that this is true, try life in Venezuela for awhile and report back to us.

 

[Mountainmike]

Spot on.

I am a serial business owner.
For the first few years it is 80-100 hour 7 day weeks,
Investing an eyewatering sum of money, which puts all you have at risk. The only ones who get paid reliably are employees.

staff turn is a serious problem , so business owners do what they can to keep employees happy, which is certainly not always reciprocated.


Even governments treat business as an extended benefit scheme! Considering business employs most people and pays directly or indirectly for all social and public spending it deserves far more respect than it gets.

...and the notion that the owner never does any work, doesn't risk his own money, and does whatever he can to hurt his employees is true mainly in Democrat/Socialist fantasies. The facts are to the opposite.

But if all that might be true in some instances, the employees and customers could go somewhere else and get what they want. And if you doubt that this is true, try life in Venezuela for awhile and report back to us.

 

[Hank77]

...and the notion that the owner never does any work, doesn't risk his own money, and does whatever he can to hurt his employees is true mainly in Democrat/Socialist fantasies. The facts are to the opposite.

But if all that might be true in some instances, the employees and customers could go somewhere else and get what they want. And if you doubt that this is true, try life in Venezuela for awhile and report back to us.

Only because in the US we made laws to protect the workers. Would you want to go back to the days before labor laws, when children from poor families were working in factories all day because the parent wasn't paid well enough to raise a family? Those kids never got an education that they could use to get out of poverty.

 

[Soyeong]

is capitalism and christianity compatible?

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.” - Thomas Sowell

 

[timewerx]

Only because in the US we made laws to protect the workers.

This is why the American capitalists outsource jobs if possible.

To countries with weak labor laws to save money in human resources / manufacturing.

Because the laws that protect American workers have made it "too expensive" to run a business in USA.

Captalism encourages such devious strategy that's why it is not compatible with Christianity.

 

[timewerx]

And if you doubt that this is true, try life in Venezuela for awhile and report back to us.

I own a small tech business serving clients in USA and Europe and I live in a third world country.

Many western countries outsource their jobs here to be competitive.

Because the 3rd world gov't doesn't protect their citizens enough from exploitation, which makes it far cheaper for American or European companies to do business here.

This is why I have a pretty grim view of Capitalism. The money is tainted.

As Jesus said, if you love money, you hate God. Money is not one of God's blessings (find this surprising, read 1 John 2:15-17). Because the very nature of money is the opposite of God, it's about the symbol of evil.